All-Star Is It The Judges Fault That There Is No Change At The Top

[Coach Troy]

First I want to state for the record this is not a post against any team that took home the gold this weekend.....

This is my first question...

The skills are the same..the execution is the same...so what will it take for another name outside of the Cheer Athletics, World Cups, Top Guns, or place name of mega program here...to win ????

My answer to this delima is we are stuck with the same teams at the top not because others cannot do it better but because in the end we have a pool of judges that only know and respect one style and until they leave or are replaced we will always have very little change at the top.
We have a judges "overall impression" problem. The impression of the judges and thier opinion of who should "win" has not changed in the last 6-7 years, because the same "opinions" are still sitting in the same chairs....

Others can do it just as good as the household names so my 2nd question is this......

Can anyone hope to succeed if the majority of judging panels have not changed for almost a decade????

 

[Admin]

I completely disagree with you here. The big gyms win because not only do they have to skill set to do so, they have the proper technique and are able to execute well. Because of that alone the "big names" are set ahead of everyone else.

I would also like to point out that this year unlike any other, because of the 10 to finals change, there were some "big names" that did not even make it to day two.

 

[we_stand_alone]

I have to say I disagree. The judges "style" in my opinion has nothing to do with the top 3. It's simple really, if you want to make top 3, you have to have the perfect combination of not only difficult skills but also cleanliness. I agree with the top three in basically every division, because if you sit there and watch the entire division, who else could have broken into that top 3? The top 3 are the top 3 for a reason, they hit the best on that given Sunday. If cheer athletics, top gun, cea, and cali had all dropped five stunts in large coed, and let's say ATA hit everything. ATA could have easily walked away with a medal, but that didn't happen, therefore ATA is lacking in places on the scoresheet that the others are beating them in. (not to diss ATA at all I thought they were amazing, just using this smaller less known gym as an example) Just remember all big name gyms were once small gyms. They BUILT themselves up.

 

[Mclovin]

I would also like to point out that South Elite, who has never to my knowledge been in the top ten of any division, got 2nd place in medium coed this year. I was completely and totally awestruck by them this weekend!! No name gym - Silver medal at worlds!

 

[Coach Troy]

I would also like to point out that South Elite, who has never to my knowledge been in the top ten of any division, got 2nd place in medium coed this year. I was completely and totally awestruck by them this weekend!! No name gym - Silver medal at worlds!

I love that you brought this team up.
They were amazing and so talented and HIT....so should they have won they obviously had the execution and difficulty but just lacked the "name"....

 

[CoachTamara]

First I want to state for the record this is not a post against any team that took home the gold this weekend.....

This is my first question...

The skills are the same..the execution is the same...so what will it take for another name outside of the Cheer Athletics, World Cups, Top Guns, or place name of mega program here...to win ????

My answer to this delima is we are stuck with the same teams at the top not because others cannot do it better but because in the end we have a pool of judges that only know and respect one style and until they leave or are replaced we will always have very little change at the top.
We have a judges "overall impression" problem. The impression of the judges and thier opinion of who should "win" has not changed in the last 6-7 years, because the same "opinions" are still sitting in the same chairs....

Others can do it just as good as the household names so my 2nd question is this......

Can anyone hope to succeed if the majority of judging panels have not changed for almost a decade????

Watching this weekend, I think you are wrong about a few things.... First, the skills aren't the same, and the execution is not the same. There is a HUGE difference in technique between Orange and the teams that finished on the lower half of the division. I don't believe I saw one incomplete double on orange, or anything even close to it. I saw MANY on other teams.
The thing is, the big gyms get bigger and continue to not only produce but also bring in more and more talent each year. If I have a double and grow up in a gym that is only beginning to break into the worlds scene and there is a gym down the street that is producing multiple teams and winning, guess where I'm probably going to go... Does it stink? Yes, but that's life. Kids want a ring, and they'll do what it takes to get it.
Also, I think this year there were many teams that made a breakthrough on the worlds scene, proving that it's not always the same gyms over and over. I watch a lot of cheer, and I had never seen South Elite and I was super impressed. Before they announced it, I really thought they won and I even said "Wow, how crazy that an unknown team can come up and win worlds... What a boost for small gyms and programs." Obviously this didn't happen, but it easily could have, and I think that statement still stands, even finishing second.
The level of competition is simply crazy these days... A tenth place routine this year probably would have won worlds a few years ago. There are some things I didn't agree with this weekend, but I don't think it's as biased as you think.

 

[Coach Troy]

I have to say I disagree. The judges "style" in my opinion has nothing to do with the top 3. It's simple really, if you want to make top 3, you have to have the perfect combination of not only difficult skills but also cleanliness. I agree with the top three in basically every division, because if you sit there and watch the entire division, who else could have broken into that top 3? The top 3 are the top 3 for a reason, they hit the best on that given Sunday. If cheer athletics, top gun, cea, and cali had all dropped five stunts in large coed, and let's say ATA hit everything. ATA could have easily walked away with a medal, but that didn't happen, therefore ATA is lacking in places on the scoresheet that the others are beating them in. (not to diss ATA at all I thought they were amazing, just using this smaller less known gym as an example) Just remember all big name gyms were once small gyms. They BUILT themselves up.

But teams like that did drop....
Again I am not trying to make this a discussion against gyms, teams, or athletes....
What I saying is could there be a corolation between the lack of new judges and the less then diverse nature of placements??

 

[Admin]

I love that you brought this team up.
They were amazing and so talented and HIT....so should they have won they obviously had the execution and difficulty but just lacked the "name"....

if you look at their scores, they fell short in the tumbling category...

 

[Marrrrr]

I would also like to point out that South Elite, who has never to my knowledge been in the top ten of any division, got 2nd place in medium coed this year. I was completely and totally awestruck by them this weekend!! No name gym - Silver medal at worlds!

South Elite actually won worlds in 2008 in the Large International Open All-Girl division

 

[Coach Troy]

Watching this weekend, I think you are wrong about a few things.... First, the skills aren't the same, and the execution is not the same. There is a HUGE difference in technique between Orange and the teams that finished on the lower half of the division. I don't believe I saw one incomplete double on orange, or anything even close to it. I saw MANY on other teams.
The thing is, the big gyms get bigger and continue to not only produce but also bring in more and more talent each year. If I have a double and grow up in a gym that is only beginning to break into the worlds scene and there is a gym down the street that is producing multiple teams and winning, guess where I'm probably going to go... Does it stink? Yes, but that's life. Kids want a ring, and they'll do what it takes to get it.
Also, I think this year there were many teams that made a breakthrough on the worlds scene, proving that it's not always the same gyms over and over. I watch a lot of cheer, and I had never seen South Elite and I was super impressed. Before they announced it, I really thought they won and I even said "Wow, how crazy that an unknown team can come up and win worlds... What a boost for small gyms and programs." Obviously this didn't happen, but it easily could have, and I think that statement still stands, even finishing second.
The level of competition is simply crazy these days... A tenth place routine this year probably would have won worlds a few years ago. There are some things I didn't agree with this weekend, but I don't think it's as biased as you think.

I don't mean a malicious biased or that judges are conspiring just that with no change in the people that are watching is there a realistic expectation that placements can or will change???

 

[CoachTamara]

I love that you brought this team up.
They were amazing and so talented and HIT....so should they have won they obviously had the execution and difficulty but just lacked the "name"....

A drop is worth 3 points. SOT was ahead of South Elite by 6 points in the tumbling category alone, and ahead of them in the dance category as well.

 

[hejcheercoach]

:enjoyshow: I've been wanting to use this face

 

[fiercerando88]

Those 'big name' gyms are at the top for a reason that has nothing to do with their name. They've been around forever and know what the judges are looking for. They put the right elements in and can hit them, and hit them well. They've mastered the formula for routines and make them work year in and year out. It takes time for other programs to get there, but as we can see with teams like South Elite like Mclovin mentioned, it's happening. Three different gyms from New England made top 10 this year, which I don't believe has happened (correct me if I'm wrong). These gyms are learning, but like I said, it takes time.

I disagree with you about the judges impression, also. I don't think their 'opinion' is what makes teams win. The teams that win know what the judges are looking for and do it. I feel like this thread comes up every year. Sorry, but if teams like CA and WC who have been around forever, don't understand how to put together a winning routine by now, people would stop going to their gyms. That's obviously not the case, because they learn, they watch, and they practice hard. That's what makes them win, not because the pool of judges has a certain pre-determined opinion about what teams should win.

 

[fiercerando88]

I don't mean a malicious biased or that judges are conspiring just that with no change in the people that are watching is there a realistic expectation that placements can or will change???

Yes. When other teams step up the areas they're lacking. I.e. South Elite in tumbling.

 

[Mclovin]

I love that you brought this team up.
They were amazing and so talented and HIT....so should they have won they obviously had the execution and difficulty but just lacked the "name"....

Well...I don't think they should have won. I honestly thought Gymtyme was going to win...when they didn't, I thought for sure T&S was taking home the globe. But that's not how the judges saw it and I'm not going to speculate as to why that wasn't the case. I could get into a really huge debate about this division since my gym competes in it. But I've been asked to keep it classy on social media so I'm respecting that request. The bottom line to me...the entire top 10 in this division was insanely good and was probably the toughest division to compete in this year.