All-Star Am I The Only One? (score Sheet Talk)

[Drkilluzionz]

Not in favor of a universal scoresheet?

In my perfect World every company would have an identity...take All Star Challenge...they are the most unique in my mind because they have a philosophy and standard all their own in regards to their scoring...1/2 skills and execution 1/2 presentation(It's much more elaborative than that but I'd be here all day).

We have a million and one companies out there now with more and more surfacing each year...Gyms, choreographers and styles are all so diverse and SUBJECTIVE that I'd love to see each company say this is where I stand...this is what our company wants to see...Go!

I don't mind that I make my routine and tweak a little for this competition and rearrange a little here and there for that one...keeps things less monotonous for my kids and I...Am I crazy? lol

 

[MissCongeniality]

I think until this "sport" loses much of the "subjectivity" that currently exists... it will never be able to advance to the levels and respect that it deserves. I think there will still be plenty of room for creativity and differences (look at figure skating) but there needs to be guidelines and better accountability. Thats my .02 having recently seen a scoresheet that was erased all over the place. Not that having a universal scoresheet would change "behind the scenes" scoring changes after the fact, but it would hold folks for accountable for the scores etc. (in my humble opinion)

 

[srt418]

Not in favor of a universal scoresheet?

In my perfect World every company would have an identity...take All Star Challenge...they are the most unique in my mind because they have a philosophy and standard all their own in regards to their scoring...1/2 skills and execution 1/2 presentation(It's much more elaborative than that but I'd be here all day).

We have a million and one companies out there now with more and more surfacing each year...Gyms, choreographers and styles are all so diverse and SUBJECTIVE that I'd love to see each company say this is where I stand...this is what our company wants to see...Go!

I don't mind that I make my routine and tweak a little for this competition and rearrange a little here and there for that one...keeps things less monotonous for my kids and I...Am I crazy? lol

I'll be honest and say that I haven't exactly thought through all the pros and cons of having a universal scoresheet. But everytime I hear anything about a universal scoresheet I immediately think of this too. When I cheered, I had a coach that ALWAYS looked at the scoresheet one month before the comp. and tweaked our routine according to it. This was successful. It was fun too because if there was something you didn't like in the routine, it would probably change at one point. Also you didn't do the same routine over and over again from October to April. So yes, I was some things to be universalized, but I do want some things to be unique for each competition company.

 

[rvnblue]

My question is what performance is there about running tumbling, standing tumbling, jumps, pyramids, or any other skill set? Is it facials? If so, I wouldn't want to be judged on facials or how fierce my teams' hair flips are. I think performance goes into choreography which is transitions, motions, dance, and originality which can be put on a universal scoresheet. I hope that made sense.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I have several concerns with implementing a Universal Score Sheet, including much of what Drkilluzionz said.

 

[rvnblue]

I still believe that a great routine will be able to score well on ANY scoresheet, even the outrageously conceptualized ones.

 

[King]

I still believe that a great routine will be able to score well on ANY scoresheet, even the outrageously conceptualized ones.

Which means that having multiple scoresheets that produce the same winner is more trouble than it is worth. If the result is always generally the same (barring the performance of the day) then why go through the trouble of having multiple companies have separate scoresheets and train more individuals to do things differently everywhere. You are not going to be as accurate in your judging.

 

[newcheerdad]

Which means that having multiple scoresheets that produce the same winner is more trouble than it is worth. If the result is always generally the same (barring the performance of the day) then why go through the trouble of having multiple companies have separate scoresheets and train more individuals to do things differently everywhere. You are not going to be as accurate in your judging.

Totally agree. Believe me, it's hard enough to be a referee/official when the rules are the same everywhere you go. When you're asked to follow a different set of rules based on the competition, that would seem to make it that much harder to be an effective judge.

 

[SharkDad]

My question is what performance is there about running tumbling, standing tumbling, jumps, pyramids, or any other skill set? Is it facials? If so, I wouldn't want to be judged on facials or how fierce my teams' hair flips are. I think performance goes into choreography which is transitions, motions, dance, and originality which can be put on a universal scoresheet. I hope that made sense.

You bring up a great point. I think there should be a hair flip quantity score, but not performance score. That's more objective across the board.

 

[BlueCat]

The point of a universal scoresheet would NOT be to reduce or eliminate subjectivity. You could keep as much of that on the scoresheet as you wanted. The point would be to introduce consistency to the judging process. Judges, coaches, athletes, and parents would be able to take what they learned from one competition and apply it to the other events they go to throughout the season.

More important than a universal system to me is that they open up the secretive scoring process to the public (or at least the coaches). I think that in and of itself would force the judging to improve dramatically. I am constantly amazed that anyone would possibly be opposed to letting teams/athletes/coaches know why they won or lost

** side note: I don't think that the scoring systems / ranges actually work the way that event producers "want" them to. My feeling is that the simplistic way they design the ranges AND the way they push for "consistency" among judges do NOT necessarily produce the results they intend mathematically.

 

[kristenthegreat]

As long as there is a large enough quantity of subjectivity involved (and by that I mean the transitions, motion section [and yes, I mean an actual SECTION required] dance, choreo etc), universal score sheets won't get cookie-cutter. And I agree with BlueCat. Even the best score-sheets are useless if they're not used correctly. Period. We need better judges before score sheets make any type of difference.

And I still don't know why score sheets can't be released. FREE THE SCORESHEETS! (I'm making t-shirts).

 

[SharkDad]

Two things I've noticed:

1. scoring in any type of competitive cheer (I am including HS/college/all star) in my opinion is one of the single best and cheapest ways to enforce all the rules that people are concerned about. If event producers checked eligibility (therefore not puttng all of the cost on USASF), used good review systems to deduct for illegalities and the current emotional discussion of deducting for terrible/sloppy/DANGEROUS tumbling and technique then coaches and gym owneers will fix those problems.

2. complete openness by event producers of their entire judging process woud be great and fix many problems as well. It will also make very apparrent any producer or scoring panel that is not truly competent or organized and in my opinion some people don't want to allow that.

 

[King]

I think it is about empowering the judges. What? Empowering the judges? Yep, that is what I said.

Let us take the NFL for example (and even college football). Now that EVERY play is reviewable AND a coach can challenge calls the belief in fair and equitable refereeing has gone way up. Sure there are still mistakes, but I would be willing to be the general satisfaction in ref-ing has gone way up and is rarely part of the discussion when talking about who should have won a football game (as opposed to soccer... ughh).

Scoresheets, at the moment, should NOT be released. It would be unfair to judges. Even to the trained eye switching systems from week to week is going to produce inaccuracies. There are great, smart, and talented judges out there, but not enough to have ones who only work in one scoresheet. So you have either under talented judges having to be on a scoresheet because they will be more familiar OR very talented judges try and cross over on scoresheets.

I can look at a stunt on an NCA scoresheet and pretty much figure out exactly how something will score (and usually when I get our scoresheets back I am pretty close). But I was trying to help someone with a Jamfest scoring thing earlier this week and MAN am I out of my element. Yes I know skills, but it is soooo different and out of my comfort zone. How the heck can we expect a judge to make a smooth transition from one scoresheet to another and NOT make mistakes? Then release those scoresheets and expose the judges errors when we are asking them to take on an rather difficulty and impossible task.

And from a pragmatic standpoint it is NOT like the top teams at every competition change. That is the CRAZIEST part about it. It is not like CEA, F5, and WCSS go to Jamfest and we expect those three to NOT be battling it out for top spot. Yes, let us say WCSS is more favored on the Jamfest sheet (I dont know if they are, just for the sake of argument) how they perform and do will still be the deciding factor.

So, I ask this to the OP: If you believe that everywhere Top Gun Jags goes has a strong routine and should probably win, why does it even matter if the scoresheets are different if the results are all the same?

(this is not questioning TG's ability, duh they are good)

 

[newcheerdad]

I think it is about empowering the judges. What? Empowering the judges? Yep, that is what I said.

Let us take the NFL for example (and even college football). Now that EVERY play is reviewable AND a coach can challenge calls the belief in fair and equitable refereeing has gone way up. Sure there are still mistakes, but I would be willing to be the general satisfaction in ref-ing has gone way up and is rarely part of the discussion when talking about who should have won a football game (as opposed to soccer... ughh).

You didn't diss soccer, did you?

In the interest of disclosure, I've been involved in youth soccer for many years, and yes, I've been a referee. And the quality of soccer refereeing by and large (this past year's WC as an exception) goes up as the competition increases. That's why grade 9 referees can only officiate games up to U14, but a grade 4 national referee can referee MLS games. But the quality of officiating goes up because of experience, additional training and a complete understanding of the rules. A grade 9 referee needs to take a one-day course to be certified, while even a grade 7 referee needs to pass a written and fitness test, submit to game evaluations and have so many games of experience before they can be certified.

So I think the quality of officiating, or judging, is a major key. And the use of technology at the higher levels, but FIFA's going to move glacially on that topic so I'm not expecting major changes anytime soon. And I think that standard scoring rubrics would help dramatically in terms of being able to train and evaluate the work that judges do. I don't think it's necessary to make scoresheets public, just as I don't think it's necessary to have referees sit at a podium and explain every call they made in a game. But there does need to be a robust system where judges are not just trained, but are constantly learning and being evaluated.

I am not familliar with cheer works in that regard, but I'd hope that something like that is in place.

 

[King]

You didn't diss soccer, did you?

In the interest of disclosure, I've been involved in youth soccer for many years, and yes, I've been a referee. And the quality of soccer refereeing by and large (this past year's WC as an exception) goes up as the competition increases. That's why grade 9 referees can only officiate games up to U14, but a grade 4 national referee can referee MLS games. But the quality of officiating goes up because of experience, additional training and a complete understanding of the rules. A grade 9 referee needs to take a one-day course to be certified, while even a grade 7 referee needs to pass a written and fitness test, submit to game evaluations and have so many games of experience before they can be certified.

So I think the quality of officiating, or judging, is a major key. And the use of technology at the higher levels, but FIFA's going to move glacially on that topic so I'm not expecting major changes anytime soon. And I think that standard scoring rubrics would help dramatically in terms of being able to train and evaluate the work that judges do. I don't think it's necessary to make scoresheets public, just as I don't think it's necessary to have referees sit at a podium and explain every call they made in a game. But there does need to be a robust system where judges are not just trained, but are constantly learning and being evaluated.

I am not familliar with cheer works in that regard, but I'd hope that something like that is in place.

Here is how cheer scoring works in relation to soccer. At one competition a goal is worth a point. But at another competition a goal is worth .5 points and how you scored it is worth 5.