All-Star Concern About Small Limited & Small All Girl At Worlds

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Feb 4, 2010
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I realize many on this forum are focused only on the few top teams at Worlds, but for many Small Limited and Small All Girl teams, I'm assuming you might find this important... After all, for plenty of teams, just making it to Finals is a main goal at Worlds and a huge accomplishment.

I was looking at the schedule (http://infinityprosports.com.ismmedia.com/ISM3/std-content/repos/Top/usasf/Worlds11_Cheer_order.pdf) and the way they have it set up right now indicates that the following % of teams in each division will compete in Finals:

*Large Senior, Large Limited Coed, Semi-Limited Coed, Unlimited Coed- 50% or greater (55% in Unlimited)

*Small Senior, Small Limited- 35%

In previous years, the standard has been that at least 50% of teams in each club division would advance to Day 2. It has been like this forever. Obviously, Sm Sr and Sm Ltd are much larger divisions, but often times the larger the division, the more parity, depth, etc. It only is fair to allow at least 50% in every club division to get their "Day 2 moment".

I had thought that the implementation of the Prelim rounds for Sm Sr/Sm Ltd was so that the judges did not have to judge approx. 70 teams all at once, NOT to decrease the number of teams who get to compete on Day 2 well below 50%. The problem at Worlds last year was the method by which Finalists were selected (the A & B thing was lopsided), NOT that too many teams were getting to Finals. Last year's Worlds problem was seemingly solved, so why create another? While one could argue that plenty of teams in Sm Ltd/Sm Sr will get to compete twice anyway in both Prelims and Semis, we all know that the goal is to get to Finals day.

All I am asking for is that approximately 35 teams, rather 25 teams, in Sm Ltd and Sm Sr, are allowed to compete Day 2. I don't feel this is unreasonable at all... This is a mere half of the teams in these divisions, and it would keep things equal with all the other club divisions. I know a 10 team difference may not seem like much, but the parity of these 70-team divisions sometimes means that there is very little difference between a 25th place team and a 35th place one. And with 60% of teams in these two divisions advancing to Finals last year, allowing only 35% this year is quite severe.

I'm crossing my fingers maybe someone important will read this post and that this can be addressed. I don't think that I am asking for a lot... I feel this is an important and very solvable issue before Worlds. I'm not asking for stadium I don't think the two Small divisions should have to take a hit simply because there are so many teams in these divisions these days. These teams earned their way to compete like any other club division. I'm sure the heavy majority of teams in Sm Sr/Sm Ltd would rather see Finals day extended a mere 40 minutes if it means that 50% of teams could be represented like all other club divisions. For those fans who only care to see the very top teams, you could go on an extending lunch or dinner break or something. :p

Sorry this post was so long. I'm not sure anyone will bother reading to the end, but if you do, thanks.
 
I'm upset that MD Weathergirls and Reign are competing at the same time on Saturday. I'm not Lord Voldemort...I can't split myself :(

On the percentage front, I have no clue on what percentage they plan on taking. Saturday is going to be a hard fought battle for those 2 divisions. There are so many teams.
 
I'm crossing my fingers maybe someone important will read this post and that this can be addressed. I don't think that I am asking for a lot... I feel this is an important and very solvable issue before Worlds. I'm not asking for stadium I don't think the two Small divisions should have to take a hit simply because there are so many teams in these divisions these days. These teams earned their way to compete like any other club division. I'm sure the heavy majority of teams in Sm Sr/Sm Ltd would rather see Finals day extended a mere 40 minutes if it means that 50% of teams could be represented like all other club divisions. For those fans who only care to see the very top teams, you could go on an extending lunch or dinner break or something. :p

Oh my gosh. haha. I have no idea why that phrase is in there, but I tried to edit it out, but time expired. Haha, sorry about that.
 
Knowcheering said:
I realize many on this forum are focused only on the few top teams at Worlds, but for many Small Limited and Small All Girl teams, I'm assuming you might find this important... After all, for plenty of teams, just making it to Finals is a main goal at Worlds and a huge accomplishment.

I was looking at the schedule (http://infinityprosports.com.ismmedia.com/ISM3/std-content/repos/Top/usasf/Worlds11_Cheer_order.pdf) and the way they have it set up right now indicates that the following % of teams in each division will compete in Finals:

*Large Senior, Large Limited Coed, Semi-Limited Coed, Unlimited Coed- 50% or greater (55% in Unlimited)

*Small Senior, Small Limited- 35%

In previous years, the standard has been that at least 50% of teams in each club division would advance to Day 2. It has been like this forever. Obviously, Sm Sr and Sm Ltd are much larger divisions, but often times the larger the division, the more parity, depth, etc. It only is fair to allow at least 50% in every club division to get their "Day 2 moment".

I had thought that the implementation of the Prelim rounds for Sm Sr/Sm Ltd was so that the judges did not have to judge approx. 70 teams all at once, NOT to decrease the number of teams who get to compete on Day 2 well below 50%. The problem at Worlds last year was the method by which Finalists were selected (the A & B thing was lopsided), NOT that too many teams were getting to Finals. Last year's Worlds problem was seemingly solved, so why create another? While one could argue that plenty of teams in Sm Ltd/Sm Sr will get to compete twice anyway in both Prelims and Semis, we all know that the goal is to get to Finals day.

All I am asking for is that approximately 35 teams, rather 25 teams, in Sm Ltd and Sm Sr, are allowed to compete Day 2. I don't feel this is unreasonable at all... This is a mere half of the teams in these divisions, and it would keep things equal with all the other club divisions. I know a 10 team difference may not seem like much, but the parity of these 70-team divisions sometimes means that there is very little difference between a 25th place team and a 35th place one. And with 60% of teams in these two divisions advancing to Finals last year, allowing only 35% this year is quite severe.

I'm crossing my fingers maybe someone important will read this post and that this can be addressed. I don't think that I am asking for a lot... I feel this is an important and very solvable issue before Worlds. I'm not asking for stadium I don't think the two Small divisions should have to take a hit simply because there are so many teams in these divisions these days. These teams earned their way to compete like any other club division. I'm sure the heavy majority of teams in Sm Sr/Sm Ltd would rather see Finals day extended a mere 40 minutes if it means that 50% of teams could be represented like all other club divisions. For those fans who only care to see the very top teams, you could go on an extending lunch or dinner break or something. :p

Sorry this post was so long. I'm not sure anyone will bother reading to the end, but if you do, thanks.

You should repost this in all stars...you make some great points...just think there is more conversation going on over there...great post, would like some more folks to see it!
 
You should repost this in all stars...you make some great points...just think there is more conversation going on over there...great post, would like some more folks to see it!

Thanks, I will post it over there too. I was going to post it there originally, but figured it would fall off the first page quickly. I hope it's okay to be posting the same post in two separate areas of the forum. I know a lot of people won't read this because it's so long, but I really do think this is an important topic for the teams in these two divisions.
 
I originally posted this in the Worlds forum, and was asked to repost it here in hopes that it has a better chance of being read...

Edited to add: thread merged by moderator.
 
I promise I won't bring my Lord Voldemort joke back ;)

Seriously though, it is something that is worth discussion. In the past, it has always been 50% or at least 50%. My question is (I haven't researched this at all, so maybe it's something that could be answered by looking at the scoresheet) 50% of the semi-final teams making it to finals? If that is the case, than I'm ok with that. Those divisions are huge, and they need to be pared down. Yes, everyone has the goal of making day 2, but in those divisions, you need to make semi's first.
 
I promise I won't bring my Lord Voldemort joke back ;)
Well you SHOULD. This board could use more Harry Potter humor, it might work like a cheering charm.

That aside, it would be interesting to see the responses. I doubt anything will be changed (it might require added costs), and with the addition of medium all-girl next year, I think this problem will be reduced even further. I haven't researched it either, but I always assumed they were taking a small percentage of the prelims teams, and then half of the semi-final teams. That might make it the number it is? I agree, yes you have that goal, but we also commented on the bid ratio being uneven, again because there are so many more small teams. It's simply a case of natural selection..
 
Not trying to be rude but everything in life isnt about being "fair" this is a competitive sport. Worlds is logistical nightmare and the USASF is doing a bang up job on this event (probably the only complitment I've ever given to the USASF) I see more negatives allowed when adding the extra 15% to finals and the only argument from your point is "its not fair" well I dont think anyone important is going to listen to your case.
 
The way I read the process is that due to small limited and small all girl having so many teams that they are not taking 50% overall. USASF will only take 50% from pre-lims, and 50% from semi-finals just like the other divisions. I dont think that this is in anyway unfair it just means that teams have to work even harder to make it to Day 2.
 
I'm always happy with a Harry Potter reference!

I don't have a problem with the 35%. This is WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS, the best of the best. It's not about being fair, or giving teams their "finals moment". That's just not what it's about. It's about winning. I'd be happy with them taking the top 5 teams from each division in prelims-that would make everyone push to hit in prelims-not to play it safe for prelims, just to get through to finals and then pull out all the stops at finals.

In Olympic gymnastics they only take the top 2 from each country. So if the USA had the top 3 spots after prelims, too bad for the girl in #3.....she is one of the top gymnasts in the world, but can't compete in finals-even though a no-name from some country that is not strong in gymnastics gets to compete in finals-even though she has no chance of winning, or even placing.

Now, I know that cheer and gymnastics are very different. But, they are both competitive sports and it's about winning.
 
I thought about this too, I don't know if in the process they realized that some divisions would not have 50% in finals. If they knew that and that was their intention then it is what it is, but to have some divisions take 50% and some not take 50% is what's questionable. You can have whatever rule you want, but it should be the same across the board. Even if you had to add 10 teams to make it 50% @ 2.30min each that's not a lot when it comes to the amount of time needed. Then you add in the opinion that paid bids go to finals (dont want to start this argument, because past results can prove or disprove) is there room for at- large teams to actually end up in finals?
 
They're still taking 50% of the division to finals. Its just not the 50% you want. I love this idea! I hope for a day when all divisions will be like this! Not everyone deserves a spot in Finals (or even a bid but don't get me started). They're taking 50% of prelims to semifinals and then 50% of semifinals to finals. Sounds like 50% to me! At least they get to complete twice. The majority of the small senior and small limited teams will compete twice no matter what. In the divisions that don't have semi-finals, 50% of the teams are one and done. Now that kind sucks, lets be for real!
 
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