All-Star Illegal Skills = Full Paid? Or Fire Legality Judges

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Dec 15, 2009
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I just want to start off and say that the teams that got the bids clearly deserve their full paids with the amount of skill and creativity they have. This is more of a rant at legality judges not doing their job and not deducting points probably due to lack of knowledge. Or feel free to correct me.

I will start off with the ruling, then the skills performed. Then post a clarification convo I had with les to justify my cases.

The main reason this is an issue for me is that we want to train industry judges to do comparative, yet they fail to enforce performance rules...

LEVEL 5 STANDING TUMBLING

  1. Skills are allowed up to 1 flipping and 2 twisting rotations.
  2. Tumbling skills involving flipping and twisting immediately into a double twisting tumbling skill are not allowed.
  3. Twisting skills immediately out of a double twisting tumbling skill are not allowed.
  4. (In Standing Tumbling only) Skills involving more than one twist (i.e. Double fulls) must be immediately preceded by a minimum of two backward traveling, non-twisting tumbling skills. One of these two skills must be a back handspring. (Jump skills are not considered tumbling skills. i.e. toe touch > back handspring > double full = illegal)
    Clarification: Handstands are not “backward traveling” tumbling skills. Therefore, back extension rolls do not count as the “backward traveling” tumbling skills required before a double full.
    Clarification: If an athlete is performing a second double full within one Standing Tumbling pass, then that athlete must follow Standing Tumbling rules A,B and C but not D.
    Example: standing back handspring>back handspring>double full>back handspring>double full=Legal

    Clarification: If the requirements in “D” are met before performing a single full, then only letters A, B and C need to be followed.
    Example: standing back handspring>back handspring>SINGLE full>back handspring>double
    full=Legal

1. the skills that were performed was a single handspring full whip double, which in the clarification says that the full must meet requirements of D which it does not cuz there is only 1 skill prior.


Number 2. Another coed team performing a handspring whip whip double. This is the one most ppl will argue with me, so I will show my les convo in the next post.



Thoughts to fix legality judging training?
 
You are correct. Because the word "immediately" is used in the rule, one of the two skills preceding the double must be a BHS.
Les Stella
Vice President
USASF Rules, Safety and Judging

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 2:50 AM, Alex Wu <Alex Wu> wrote:Hey Les,

I have a question about standing tumbling for level 5. Last year, the rules were slightly funky and made it so that hand hand double whip doubles were legal but hand hand whip whip double and hand hand full whip doubles were illegal. And I read the rule change and believe that hand hand full whip doubles are legal. But from my understanding by the reading, is that hand hand whip whip double is still illegal? Because the first spin in the pass is the double which must immediately be proceeded by 2 backward traveling, non twisting skills, one of those 2 must be a handspring. Since the handspring is prior to the 2 immediate skills before the double, that would make hand hand whip whip double illegal?

Thank you in advanced. Friends and coaches are having a debate about this question.

Sent from iPhone.
 
Handspring whip whip double appears to be legal. The double is preceded by a handspring and two backward, non-twisting tumbling skills (whips).
But in the two skills immediately preceding the double, one of them must be a BHS? In that example the BHS is the third skill preceding the double?

I honestly know nothing about rules because I don't coach, so I could be totally wrong, but that's my interpretation of section D.
 
Honestly, that's a stupid loophole. I think we can all agree that if handspring whip doubles are legal, handspring whip whip doubles should also be illegal. Unfortunately you are correct, so it does seem that these skills are illegal. I wouldn't blame it on the safety judges as much as the people who wrote the rules.
 
I just got really dizzy.... :eek:

I will say that I do agree that judges (not all cause some are fantastic ;)) should be better trained especially in the whole issue of tumbling (standing running etc) and whats legal or not legal cause the loopholes are enough to cause a sinkhole in the whole rulebook.... omg my head hurts lol :deathdrop:
 
Judges are not perfect unfortunately, we were called in "illegal" move in our level 4 team which our coach proved not to be when he played the video and Reread the rule to the judges.
 
I'm 99% sure we've had this discussion on here before a looooong time ago when the rules first got changed. Or maybe I'm going crazy.
 
I've lost my ability to have these discussions in detail but mad props to the OP for a completely masterful message outlining the situation and his case. Bravo.


**EPs should only be able to designate ONE competition as a "national".**
 
Deductions (both legality and skill mistakes) get missed from time to time. Judging is not perfect in this or any other sport. For better or worse, it is part of the game. In the long run, programs will lose when they shouldn't and win when they shouldn't several times over.

None of that refutes your point in any way, just giving a perspective.
 
I've lost my ability to have these discussions in detail but mad props to the OP for a completely masterful message outlining the situation and his case. Bravo.


**EPs should only be able to designate ONE competition as a "national".**

Why thank you
 
Is there some kind of a video review before giving a bid? I don't know about that since I never coached all-stars.
 
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