All-Star Impact Of Building Being 40% Of Score

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Jan 1, 2011
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This weekend I got into a discussion about how much impact weighting scores 40% Building, 30% Tumbling, 20% Performance, and 10% Creativity will have. I don’t think results will change much because of it, but the person I was talking to strongly disagreed. He pointed out it made 1 Building point worth 1.33 Tumbling points and said it would have changed the way his gym picked teams for this season. Had they know Building would be weighted as much as it is, they would have been more open to taking a great stunter, especially a top girl, with less tumbling.
There was also concern over the impact this would have on tumbling classes, the bread and butter for gyms. The concern was the reduced emphasis on tumbling would lead to a reduction in the amount of time athletes spend in tumbling classes and privates, messing up the economics of gyms.
Any thoughts on the impact of the new weights?

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Sorry, I am out of the loop. Is this currently in place: 40% Building, 30% Tumbling, 20% Performance, and 10% Creativity will have? If so, how much does dance & jump skills effect scoring? My daughters are good at tumbling & stunting, but weak in the dance & jump skills. It has just never been their strength.
 
All of the theoretical scoring percentages are interesting, but what really affect results is the ACTUAL range of scores the judges give between below average, average, and elite teams in each category. Coaches rarely get to see those numbers, so they don't have a good feel for how the scoring is actually balanced out. <<<insert long diatribe about lack of transparency, standard deviation, correlation, etc.>>>

LET US SEE THE SCORES!!! This includes BOTH the difficulty and execution scores as separate numbers. Simplest, cleanest solution: For each team, take every number that judges write on a scoresheet & average those out among all the judges on the panel. (Stunt difficulty average, stunt execution average, etc.) Put all of that info in a basic table/spreadsheet for all of the teams in each division and give it to each team in the division. (I would prefer getting a spreadsheet that includes every team in your level, but we'll take what we can get.)

If an EP needs someone to help them set that system up for them, there would be any number of people, myself included, that would happily do it for free. It could be as simple as an Excel spreadsheet, or it could be done in a more advanced relational database system. You could then even post those results online as a google doc or similar at no cost to you. This should, in theory, take almost NO more effort on your part than simply typing in the numbers from each scoresheet, which I sincerely hope you are already doing anyway.
 
Sorry, I am out of the loop. Is this currently in place: 40% Building, 30% Tumbling, 20% Performance, and 10% Creativity will have? If so, how much does dance & jump skills effect scoring? My daughters are good at tumbling & stunting, but weak in the dance & jump skills. It has just never been their strength.

Jumps are included in the Tumbling section, but separately would be 10% of the total. Dance is included in the Performance section and would be 6.67% of the total.
 
All of the theoretical scoring percentages are interesting, but what really affect results is the ACTUAL range of scores the judges give between below average, average, and elite teams in each category. Coaches rarely get to see those numbers, so they don't have a good feel for how the scoring is actually balanced out. <<<insert long diatribe about lack of transparency, standard deviation, correlation, etc.>>>

LET US SEE THE SCORES!!! This includes BOTH the difficulty and execution scores as separate numbers. Simplest, cleanest solution: For each team, take every number that judges write on a scoresheet & average those out among all the judges on the panel. (Stunt difficulty average, stunt execution average, etc.) Put all of that info in a basic table/spreadsheet for all of the teams in each division and give it to each team in the division. (I would prefer getting a spreadsheet that includes every team in your level, but we'll take what we can get.)

If an EP needs someone to help them set that system up for them, there would be any number of people, myself included, that would happily do it for free. It could be as simple as an Excel spreadsheet, or it could be done in a more advanced relational database system. You could then even post those results online as a google doc or similar at no cost to you. This should, in theory, take almost NO more effort on your part than simply typing in the numbers from each scoresheet, which I sincerely hope you are already doing anyway.

Talk to Craig Davis, Shannon Smith, and Brian Elza to see if the summary you want can be made part of E-Score.
 
It's the way it is... but
I think that All-Stars started and gave athletes from gymnastics, acro, cheerleading and dance to have an all in one sport. Therefore it should be an even percentage across the score sheet.
 
I am going to move this to allstar, because I have a strong opinion on it (and would like to hear others takes on it).
 
While to some extent I do agree about building being worth more because it IS what separates us from being just high-flying gymnastics, I also prefer to be well-rounded. Granted, only two things make up building (and they're big parts), but at least 3 things make up tumbling, correct? Standing, running, and jumps? I suppose it makes sense in that regard, with pyramids and stunts being in building and worth 20% each and all of the tumbling things worth 10% total. Some part of it irks me, but mathematically it makes sense like that.

I don't know if I'm having an opinion or just typing out my thoughts.. :D
 
I think what separates us from gymnastics or school cheer is that we have more well-rounded athletes. Therefore, I feel we should have a more well-rounded scoresheet. I feel that clean transitions and motions are just as important as amazing stunts. I have always felt that way. Jumps are just as important as running tumbling. Dance is just as important as pyramids...and so on. I would prefer a scoresheet that reflects this opinion with all elements being treated equally. JMO
 
The issue is what do you think cheerleading is?

Cheerleading is stunts! We invented it!

No, we didn't. Take a look at acro videos or even some 100 year old circus videos where people are doing some amazing stunting skills. We didn't invent stunting, but we did organize it, legitimize it, give it set attributes and start scoring it.

Building is harder than tumbling!

I disagree. It is equally as hard in completely different ways. Tumbling takes years to learn and perfect, where as a stunt group doesnt look at learning skills to use 3 years from now. They think about this season only for their stunting skills. That doesn't mean stunting isn't difficult, but we are comparing apples and Oranges here.

Lowering the tumbling worth will not decrease tumbling class.

Yes it will. Let us take Worlds for example. In small senior the winners had the strongest advantage because of their tumbling. If the Worlds scoresheet had no adjustment and was cemented for 10+ years what would ever coach picking their small senior team concentrate on first? Choosing a strong tumbling team first. Now we have a reverse situation with the Varsity scoresheet. The team with the best building will outscore the team that focussed on tumbling too much. We are going to choose teams MORE focussed on building, and tumbling will be secondary. How does that affect the bottom line?

I once had a dad watch his daughter do a triple toe back and say to me, half jokingly, that is a $5,000 back tuck (before anyone questions the amount, follow along). $5,000 of tumbling lessons, privates, open gyms, extra conditioning classes...everything. How much money does each standing back tuck OR full represent? If you look at a small senior team and all of them have fulls, all that represent ~$100,000 worth of instruction. Now with less tumbling requirement squad fulls is way less on the radar. I can choose a team with 12 fulls but are WAY better stunters. The 8 girls who do not have fulls only represent $3,000 worth of tumbling. So, $2000 off the 8 athletes is $16,000 less. That isn't $16,000 off a 'gym', but $16,000 out of the industry.... from one team. And that has trickle down effect all the way to Tiny 1. If Mini 2 doesnt 'require' backwalkover backhandspring now to win, then making tiny's take that backwalkover class first is a lot harder to sell. The ripple affects of this are not well thought out.
 
Oh, and per earlier conversations I believe someone suggested we replace tumbling classes with stunting classes. Issue is flyers will pay for stunt classes, bases will not. That is only 25% of a stunt group to pull from. Everyone has to tumble. As well if you have a stunt class and one person misses (a base or flyer) the whole group suffers. If someone misses a tumbling class ONLY the athlete suffers (in the running of the class). What would happen if 8 bases showed up to stunt class and not a single flyer was there?
 
This whole thing annoys the crap out of me. For YEARS the "UCA" a.k.a. (Varsity) world has preached how much more important and harder stunting is that tumbling, garbage, I think its only bc your company has been out tumbled from the beginning. I am surprised/disappointed that Justin let this fly. Let me add again, THIS IS STUPID. Why can't tumbling and stunts be equal? What does it hurt for them to be equal? NOTHING. 3 skill sets make up tumbling (standing, running, jumps) 3 skill sets make up stunting (stunts, pyramids, baskets) sounds like they should be equal to me.
 
Dang it, this soap box is just so comfortable I can't leave.

Here is where the complaint comes from. Gym A competes Gym B. Because of whatever reasons Gym A is smaller than Gym B. Gym B has a LOT of team tumbling and amazing stunting. Because of the nature of cheerleading (stunting can be attained a lot quicker than tumbling) Gym A is upset that they will not be able to beat Gym B because of all the skills they have. But if... just if... they made tumbling worth a lot less we could concentrate on stunting and have a chance. In fact, a LOT of smaller gyms will be more competitive this year BECAUSE of this. Now, will the winners change much? Not really.

So if the winners will not change much and we will decrease the amount of money put into tumbling instruction for the industry WHY THE HECK ARE WE DOING THIS?!?
 
cheerinfo said:
I think what separates us from gymnastics or school cheer is that we have more well-rounded athletes. Therefore, I feel we should have a more well-rounded scoresheet. I feel that clean transitions and motions are just as important as amazing stunts. I have always felt that way. Jumps are just as important as running tumbling. Dance is just as important as pyramids...and so on. I would prefer a scoresheet that reflects this opinion with all elements being treated equally. JMO

Agreed! We work equally hard on getting all of the skills necessary so I think they should be equally scored. It's an even playing field for everyone then and won't reward teams that are stacked in one area. A scoresheet should reward your practice efforts bc thats what shows up on the mat.
 
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