All-Star Inconsistency In Judging

[ImBigRed]

Trying to get some insight from other coaches, parents, cheerleaders. I took my Level 2 small senior team to 3 competitions over the last two months. In our pyramid, we do a double braced release move.

At the first competition, American Cheer Power, We did our double braced release move back to sponge and then popped it back up for our lib. NO LEGALITY! FIRST PLACE!

At the second competition, Jam BRANDS, we received a LEGALITY in which they said that we must release and land in cradle or to the floor (performance surface). Concerned, I change my release move to catch in a cradle! We received fifth place. Our raw score was in first by an entire point.

At the third competition, Cheer LTD, We did our release move to cradle and were SURE that we would take first place. LEGALITY! This legality judge said that there are NO RELEASE MOVES allowed in Level 2. Our kids took second place, who also would have been in first.

One of the legality judges literally told me that it was "HIS" Interpretation. This just sounds completely unprofessional and opinionated. I then watched Stingray Large Junior 2 video from a few weekends ago where they release and land in cradle... THEY WON GRAND CHAMPION! (incredible team)

But... HOW IS THIS FAIR TO OUR ATHLETES?

 

[JessicaL]

Trying to get some insight from other coaches, parents, cheerleaders. I took my Level 2 small senior team to 3 competitions over the last two months. In our pyramid, we do a double braced release move.

At the first competition, American Cheer Power, We did our double braced release move back to sponge and then popped it back up for our lib. NO LEGALITY! FIRST PLACE!

At the second competition, Jam BRANDS, we received a LEGALITY in which they said that we must release and land in cradle or to the floor (performance surface). Concerned, I change my release move to catch in a cradle! We received fifth place. Our raw score was in first by an entire point.

At the third competition, Cheer LTD, We did our release move to cradle and were SURE that we would take first place. LEGALITY! This legality judge said that there are NO RELEASE MOVES allowed in Level 2. Our kids took second place, who also would have been in first.

One of the legality judges literally told me that it was "HIS" Interpretation. This just sounds completely unprofessional and opinionated. I then watched Stingray Large Junior 2 video from a few weekends ago where they release and land in cradle... THEY WON GRAND CHAMPION! (incredible team)

But... HOW IS THIS FAIR TO OUR ATHLETES?

I'd be curious to know as to whether these events had a certified Safety Judge or just someone who claims to "know the rules." Unless it's a bid event, an EP does not have to use a certified rules person, unfortunately. Releasing to a cradle in the pyramid then reloading right back up is perfectly legal. The only release moves allowed in L2 are to cradle so if you're performing it that way then going back up, you're legal.

 

[Morgankay88]

What do they do in the release move... I had this legality issue last year. This is where I went wrong and what the judges told me...

"Clarification: Anytime a top person is released by the bases during a pyramid transition, the top person must land in a cradle or dismount to the performing surface and must follow the L2 dismount rules."

So I thought I followed that rule correctly because our release move ended in a cradle. However since they did a kick in it... it didn't follow the L2 dismount rules which states "Only straight pop downs, basic straight cradles and ¼ turns are allowed." "Twisting dismounts exceeding ¼ turn are not allowed. All other positions are not allowed.
Example: toe touch, pike, tuck, etc."

Hope this helps.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

Hey Jenn,

Release move to cradle or performing surface is legal. Release moves to anything else is illegal. This is something you may want to bring up to Les Stella if you have had several USASF judges that have called this incorrectly.

Shoot me a message if you need anything.

 

[ImBigRed]

I agree with an appreciate all of your replies. I just dont understand how they can interpret what the rules clearly say. When he said no release moves in level 2.... I almost lost my mind, now I know that this is not true. And then they said... We dont use vide replay and if we could go back... we most likely could not do anything about it. Completely lost respect for the company. I felt like I was in a carnival.

4everSPIRITed - I'd be curious to know as to whether these events had a certified Safety Judge or just someone who claims to "know the rules." Unless it's a bid event, an EP does not have to use a certified rules person, unfortunately....
That makes so much sense.!

 

[BlueCat]

You need to provide a video here to get a definitive answer. In fact, sending a quick video to Les is a fast, free, and easy way to get an official answer. (Just don't abuse that opportunity.)

Also, making it through a competition without getting a deduction is NOT the same as getting a seal of approval that a skill is legal. (Much like going 85 mph in a 65 without getting a ticket doesn't mean that you can always do that skill.)

 

[MissBee]

Anytime you have a questionable skill, tape the skill and send it in for a review and ruling. You can then take that ruling to comps and use it as your "defense" should you get called illegal. Remember though, you have to perform it the same way it's performed in the video you sent in.

 

[cheerinfo]

What do they do in the release move... I had this legality issue last year. This is where I went wrong and what the judges told me...

"Clarification: Anytime a top person is released by the bases during a pyramid transition, the top person must land in a cradle or dismount to the performing surface and must follow the L2 dismount rules."

So I thought I followed that rule correctly because our release move ended in a cradle. However since they did a kick in it... it didn't follow the L2 dismount rules which states "Only straight pop downs, basic straight cradles and ¼ turns are allowed." "Twisting dismounts exceeding ¼ turn are not allowed. All other positions are not allowed.
Example: toe touch, pike, tuck, etc."

Hope this helps.

I have done rules for YEARS and I have NEVER heard this interpretation of this rule. If they landed in a cradle or to the floor and the release was BRACED...that would have been legal as far as I know. It is an interesting interpretation though. Perhaps Andre could chime in on this one.

ImBigRed - If your release landed in a cradle, then it should not have been ruled anything but legal. That is a VERY common penalty called at level 2...but if you landed on the performance surface or in a cradle...it is legal. (without seeing a video I cannot be SURE, but it SHOULD be legal)

 

[socratesofcheer]

Trying to get some insight from other coaches, parents, cheerleaders. I took my Level 2 small senior team to 3 competitions over the last two months. In our pyramid, we do a double braced release move.

At the first competition, American Cheer Power, We did our double braced release move back to sponge and then popped it back up for our lib. NO LEGALITY! FIRST PLACE!

At the second competition, Jam BRANDS, we received a LEGALITY in which they said that we must release and land in cradle or to the floor (performance surface). Concerned, I change my release move to catch in a cradle! We received fifth place. Our raw score was in first by an entire point.

At the third competition, Cheer LTD, We did our release move to cradle and were SURE that we would take first place. LEGALITY! This legality judge said that there are NO RELEASE MOVES allowed in Level 2. Our kids took second place, who also would have been in first.

One of the legality judges literally told me that it was "HIS" Interpretation. This just sounds completely unprofessional and opinionated. I then watched Stingray Large Junior 2 video from a few weekends ago where they release and land in cradle... THEY WON GRAND CHAMPION! (incredible team)

But... HOW IS THIS FAIR TO OUR ATHLETES?

First Competition, You should have received a legality
Second Competition, Correct interpretation and you should have received a legality
Third Competition, Incorrect interpretation and you should NOT have received legality.

All of this is based on what you say and without any video evidence.

 

[Cheerfan1234]

Having the official green light from Les has always helped us in the past. We've regularly competed with pyramids that push the envelope while remaining legal, so we're used to being called to the judges' table. A printed out email from Mr. Stella usually makes most uneducated judges change their tune really quickly

One recommendation...When sending a video to Les, record it CLEARLY from the side, front, and back. That way he can make the best judgement call.

 

[4me2Kno]

Trying to get some insight from other coaches, parents, cheerleaders. I took my Level 2 small senior team to 3 competitions over the last two months. In our pyramid, we do a double braced release move.

At the first competition, American Cheer Power, We did our double braced release move back to sponge and then popped it back up for our lib. NO LEGALITY! FIRST PLACE!

At the second competition, Jam BRANDS, we received a LEGALITY in which they said that we must release and land in cradle or to the floor (performance surface). Concerned, I change my release move to catch in a cradle! We received fifth place. Our raw score was in first by an entire point.

At the third competition, Cheer LTD, We did our release move to cradle and were SURE that we would take first place. LEGALITY! This legality judge said that there are NO RELEASE MOVES allowed in Level 2. Our kids took second place, who also would have been in first.

One of the legality judges literally told me that it was "HIS" Interpretation. This just sounds completely unprofessional and opinionated. I then watched Stingray Large Junior 2 video from a few weekends ago where they release and land in cradle... THEY WON GRAND CHAMPION! (incredible team)

But... HOW IS THIS FAIR TO OUR ATHLETES?

You said the legality judge said there are no release moves allowed in Level 2, and said that was his interpretation.. Our staff always has a copy of the rules on hand to point to if we are to discuss such a thing with a judge/legality official/event producer staff... Or we pull it up digitally on our phones. Or the event producers normally have the rules on hand. Show them in the rules where your skills are legal or ask them to show you specifically in the rules where the mistake was. Release moves at level 2 are noted in Level 2 Stunts Section K. If release moves were not allowed, why 7 bullet points on it?

K. L2 Stunts - Release Moves
1. No release moves allowed other than those allowed at Level 2 in "Dismounts" and "Tosses."
2. Release moves may not land in a prone or inverted position.
3. Release moves must return to original bases.
Clarification: An individual may not land on the performing surface without assistance.
4. Helicopters are not allowed.
5. A single full twisting log/barrel roll is allowed as long as it starts and ends in a cradle position.
Clarification: The log roll may not be assisted by another top person.
Clarification: Log/Barrel roll must return to original bases and may not include any skill other than the twist.
Example: no kick full twists
6. Release moves may not intentionally travel.
7. Release moves may not pass over, under or through other stunts, pyramids or individuals.

Other notes in Level 2 Pyramids note:

LEVEL 2 PYRAMIDS
A. Pyramids must follow Level 2 "Stunts" and "Dismounts" rules and are allowed up to 2 high.

Clarification: Anytime a top person is released by the bases during a pyramid transition, the top person must land in a cradle or dismount to the performing surface and must follow the L2 dismount rules.

The fact that the legality judge said there are no release moves allowed in level 2 is not what the rules say, they just have to follow a certain criteria. Showing this judge the written rules would definitely show that there are legal releases at level 2 (hello, log rolls), and you could make your case how your "release" falls within the rules. Or the official would have to point to the rules and say where you made the mistake which would have proved difficult. There really shouldn't be things left up to interpretation that are pretty black and white in the rules. As you have explained, it doesn't sound like what was being performed was in the level 2 "grey area"...

 

[Deleted member 15]

I have done rules for YEARS and I have NEVER heard this interpretation of this rule. If they landed in a cradle or to the floor and the release was BRACED...that would have been legal as far as I know. It is an interesting interpretation though. Perhaps Andre could chime in on this one.

If it ended in a cradle or on the floor and didn't include a skill on the way down it should have been fine.

ImBigRed Did they call the cradle or the reload? If the reload is completely released it should be called.

 

[taytaydaubs]

My team actually had legality issues this past weekend too. Our pyramid was illegal in level 3 based on a rule that changed in November, after our routine was choreographed. Since November our routine has been checked for legality's in a video sent to UCA, at a UCA competition and both days at Jamfest Super Nationals. How did they just now catch it (and there were actually two legality's in our pyramid)?

We also had issues with the judges judging inconsistently though because they gave our junior team who goes straight up (when we have a tic toc and full up) and has fewer body positions than the seniors a higher difficulty score in their elite stunt than the seniors. There was also a comment on the seniors score sheet that said to maximize points we should have the majority of the team jump when we all jump...

 

[ImBigRed]

I will definitely send a video in. I have had so many people, including judges telling me to send to Les so that is what I will do. Thank You all

 

[CatsCoach113]

The same thing happened with a team in my gym, not one that I coach. They went to a Jamfest event before Indy to see how they would do on the score sheet, got 1st place and most entertaining .. NO DEDUCTIONS ... Went to Jamfest Indy WITH THE SAME ROUTINE and on Day 1. got a 2.5 deduction for a legailty in there pyramid putting them in 6th place .. They corrected it on for Day 2 and ended up taking home 2nd which was a HUGE jump, but that legality that they did not catch at the first competition cost them a title. I was there when they spoke with the safety judge, who was EXTREMELY nice, by far the nicest safety judge we have ever delt with. She really tried to explain why it was ilegal, however she used a term (I can not remember it sorry) . When I went to the USASF glossary to look up the deffinition of this term, to help better understand why it was illegal there was NOTHING even in the glossary exept *Sorry we are working on this page (or something along those lines) .. Needless to say, how are we supposed to understand the USASF's interpretation of things if when we go to look it up it is no where to be found. How I would define something is not how she was defining it.

Another incident we have had was last year our level 5 team competed the SAME pyramid all year, including Day 1 at Worlds. They NEVER even got questioned about it, including Day 1 at Worlds .. Well on Day 2 at Worlds they got smacked with a saftey for something in their pyramid (the same one they did the day before) which ended up knocking them out of the Top 10 (which they were in the day before) ...

I think there is A LOT of inconsistancys that cost many teams first place, bids, and other awards. There needs to be something done to fix it. I know the safety judges are doing their job, and we all of course respect that, but couldent there be a class or something to take so that they are all on the same page and there isent so much inconsistancy?!?