High School Operating W/ Competition & Partially Grounded Sideline; Does It Work?

[Official OWECheer]

I was reading through this thread Article On Espnw Says Cheer Not A Sport | Fierce Board - The Voice Of Cheer and doing some thinking.

I am of the persuasion that stunting and tumbling are not safe on grass, basketball court, or rubberized track. However I would also like for teams to be able to safely showcase their cleanest, most difficult skills for the student body. So I'd like to know whether your schools use the following system, and how well it works for you.

Fall-Sideline football cheer: No stunts, no tumbling, and no jumps. Crowd leading materials used regularly to encourage crowd participation (signs, poms, megaphones, flags, banners). IMO could be more effective because absence of stunts mean more kids available to hold props. Sideline football is a requirement for competition/basketball sideline in winter. Since this wouldn't be a sport, they could fundraise for necessities but the administration would cap how much is paid out of pocket by each athlete (perfectly fine if you're a frugal coach that can plan out your fundraising).

Winter-Competition/basketball sideline cheer: preseason takes place during the same time as sideline football, during which they practice 3-5 (ideally 5) days a week and if possible, hit the weight room every week (ideally 3-4 times a week). Also take tumbling 1x a week (during a non-lifting day) if possible. This practice schedule complements sideline football schedule, so that kids can do both. Sideline cheer used for F-ball are modified w/ stunts and tumbling added to do on mats during pre-game performances (some schools do these), and for halftime (if possible). Also, since participation in football/sideline would be necessary for participation in comp/B-ball sideline, behavior and commitment during involvement in the former would be evaluated in determining whether an athlete can participate in the latter. So if a kid is in sideline but is lazy, you might consider making them an alternate during the winter season.

Questions:

How would one be able to figure out pep rallies for football season? This might rule them out because a considerable amount of time has to be spent on prepare to execute, and then actually practicing stunts (and tumbling, if available) before publicly performing them.

Would the preseason even work, or would it violate season limits? Could the preseason be ruled as intramural, or would that even work for cheer?

Would costs be lower compared to programs that stunt and tumble on the sideline as well as competing?

Do any of you live in areas where sideline cheer is highly valued and garners lots of participation, or areas in which sideline cheer is grudgingly regarded as an accessory to competition cheer? How would a system like this work if implemented in your area (if there isn't one like it already)?

Also, how would we adjust this to the varying schedules for cheer from state to state? Some states regard cheer as a sport but don't allow training to begin until August, others begin earlier, and the final competition dates vary not only from state to state but from school to school.

I could very well be describing nothing new, but I just wanted your thoughts.

 

[CheerBank]

Our HS is of the "sideline cheer is grudgingly regarded as an accessory to competition cheer" school of thought. Unfortunately because of this their presence at games aside from some stunting and tumbling is unremarkable at best. Our school however places cheer mats on the track for them where they stand so they are not stunting or tumbling on grass or the track. The only halftime they actually perform their routine at is homecoming, and that is on the turf. This season for basketball they did not even cheer - there was always minimal room in the gym for them between the court and the pull out bleachers and players were always crashing into them, so when the AD asked if they felt it was safe the captains and coach all of whom hated basketball season emphatically said no, and that was that. It was actually kind of sad. Imho they should have figured out something better to make it work at the games but that was the route they chose.

As far as rules - tryouts are now the end August as with all fall sports (used to be in June), and they run a few "not mandatory but strongly suggested" clinics and a UCA camp during the summer. There are tryouts again for the winter season but most of the time kids are not added, and certainly not cut. They actually start working on their competition routine in early September and the tweak it again in early December. I think the NYS rule is that for all sports teams need to have had a minimum of 10 practices before they can compete, so competition season starts mid-December and ends with states in February. Many teams go to UCA as well.

I think if the sideline team was grounded for our program it would not go over well with the coach or athletes. They only cheer at the home games, our school rarely has a Friday night game even though we have the lights, and home games are pretty much the only chance they get to showcase any stunting/tumbling skills to the student body.

 

[coacha]

First question:

Fall-Sideline football cheer: No stunts, no tumbling, and no jumps.

Why no jumps? Why no tumbling? Jumping is 100% safe (heck even track members are jumping over hurdles on the track). And tumbling? Even ground bounds teams can usually tumble. :/

And even if you are of the thought that stunting is dangerous on grass, rubberized track, etc, what about shoulder sits? thigh stands? preps? All are safe. And really, my team only performs stunts at games that they can hit 10 out of 10 times. I can't remember the last time a stunt fell at a game. But this isn't the point of your post so...

How would one be able to figure out pep rallies for football season? This might rule them out because a considerable amount of time has to be spent on prepare to execute, and then actually practicing stunts (and tumbling, if available) before publicly performing them.

I'll be honest, we spend about 1/2 a practice on pep rallies right now. But that's because we use game material. But if you are trying to take a non-stunting team and have them stunt at a pep rally, you are even more dangerous than the team that goes through progressions to stunt at games week in and week out. The reason I feel we are safe stunting at games on any surface? The stunts we do hit 10 out of 10 times. And we used proper progression to get there. Rushing to get non-stunting teams prepared to do stunts at a pep rally? Not a great idea.

Would the preseason even work, or would it violate season limits? Could the preseason be ruled as intramural, or would that even work for cheer?

In PA, "competitive spirit" is a sport but by rule, does not have a defined season window. Sideline cheer is not recognized. So neither is controlled by PIAA, but is at the mercy of your AD. My particular school? Out of season practices cannot be mandatory. But our AD recognizes sideline and competition, so "out of season" is only before the middle of August and after March.

Would costs be lower compared to programs that stunt and tumble on the sideline as well as competing?

Not much. You still need cheer clothing, cheer shoes, signs, poms. Maybe you don't have to go to camp. Our kids don't do mandatory tumbling, but you'd save there if you were a team that did.

Do any of you live in areas where sideline cheer is highly valued and garners lots of participation, or areas in which sideline cheer is grudgingly regarded as an accessory to competition cheer? How would a system like this work if implemented in your area (if there isn't one like it already)?

We are in a big competitive area so for the most part sideline is an accessory. However, at our particular school, we have a huge student section at football games, and the cheerleaders do a good job of interacting and getting crowd participation. Basketball and wrestling (for us) are seen as a waste of time. But every school is different and a lot of this depends on how the coach approaches the situation.

Having said all this, what your proposing would have 1 major complication at my school. The student body would never get to see what the cheerleaders are up to. Our mats are in a different gym than basketball games, so we could not roll them out for basketball games. We are going into year 3 of a major program rebuild and nothing keeps my kids focused more than the compliments from their peers. Not even making it to state finals. We don't even do very difficult stunts on the sideline (see comment about 10/10 above) but our super clean liberties are impressive to the student body in comparison to the shaky preps and extensions of the old days. And without getting in front of the student body and showing them what we can do, our numbers wouldn't have grown like they have.

 

[Official OWECheer]

First question:

Why no jumps? Why no tumbling? Jumping is 100% safe (heck even track members are jumping over hurdles on the track). And tumbling? Even ground bounds teams can usually tumble. :/

And even if you are of the thought that stunting is dangerous on grass, rubberized track, etc, what about shoulder sits? thigh stands? preps? All are safe. And really, my team only performs stunts at games that they can hit 10 out of 10 times. I can't remember the last time a stunt fell at a game. But this isn't the point of your post so...


I'll be honest, we spend about 1/2 a practice on pep rallies right now. But that's because we use game material. But if you are trying to take a non-stunting team and have them stunt at a pep rally, you are even more dangerous than the team that goes through progressions to stunt at games week in and week out. The reason I feel we are safe stunting at games on any surface? The stunts we do hit 10 out of 10 times. And we used proper progression to get there. Rushing to get non-stunting teams prepared to do stunts at a pep rally? Not a great idea.



In PA, "competitive spirit" is a sport but by rule, does not have a defined season window. Sideline cheer is not recognized. So neither is controlled by PIAA, but is at the mercy of your AD. My particular school? Out of season practices cannot be mandatory. But our AD recognizes sideline and competition, so "out of season" is only before the middle of August and after March.




Not much. You still need cheer clothing, cheer shoes, signs, poms. Maybe you don't have to go to camp. Our kids don't do mandatory tumbling, but you'd save there if you were a team that did.


We are in a big competitive area so for the most part sideline is an accessory. However, at our particular school, we have a huge student section at football games, and the cheerleaders do a good job of interacting and getting crowd participation. Basketball and wrestling (for us) are seen as a waste of time. But every school is different and a lot of this depends on how the coach approaches the situation.

Having said all this, what your proposing would have 1 major complication at my school. The student body would never get to see what the cheerleaders are up to. Our mats are in a different gym than basketball games, so we could not roll them out for basketball games. We are going into year 3 of a major program rebuild and nothing keeps my kids focused more than the compliments from their peers. Not even making it to state finals. We don't even do very difficult stunts on the sideline (see comment about 10/10 above) but our super clean liberties are impressive to the student body in comparison to the shaky preps and extensions of the old days. And without getting in front of the student body and showing them what we can do, our numbers wouldn't have grown like they have.

I was toying w/ the idea of jumps vs. no jumps, but we could include jumps for the argument. Tumbling is not safe on rubberized track, mainly because it increases the incidence of shin splints (told by a college coach).

The part about not being able to show off skills to the student body was what really bothered me; if a high doesn't have people rallies, or if the cheerleaders aren't allowed to perform on mats, then they can't stunt or tumble for the school which sucks because, like you said, that's how you get your numbers up and show everyone how hard you've worked. I feel like this could work if you're allowed to use mats on the sideline, but IDK about schools that can't. Does your school let you guys do that?

I would ideally like for mats to provided at games and pep rallies so that kids could safely display their skills but I don't know if that would fly everywhere. I'd also love for there to be competition in fall and winter. I just want there to be a safe, competitive system that works for every school.

 

[luv2cheer92]

I was toying w/ the idea of jumps vs. no jumps, but we could include jumps for the argument. Tumbling is not safe on rubberized track, mainly because it increases the incidence of shin splints (told by a college coach).

The part about not being able to show off skills to the student body was what really bothered me; if a high doesn't have people rallies, or if the cheerleaders aren't allowed to perform on mats, then they can't stunt or tumble for the school which sucks because, like you said, that's how you get your numbers up and show everyone how hard you've worked. I feel like this could work if you're allowed to use mats on the sideline, but IDK about schools that can't. Does your school let you guys do that?

I would ideally like for mats to provided at games and pep rallies so that kids could safely display their skills but I don't know if that would fly everywhere. I'd also love for there to be competition in fall and winter. I just want there to be a safe, competitive system that works for every school.

Ehh, I don't really buy that (bolded part). Shin splints are caused by constant repetitive stress and with undertrained/weak anterior leg muscles. The occasional tumbling on a track isn't going to increase that. Now if they were doing it constantly for an hour or two every single day, then possibly. Anyone with good tumbling form should theoretically be able to tumble on any surface just fine. Though I think we all know that not all cheerleaders have the best tumbling form.

 

[Official OWECheer]

Ehh, I don't really buy that (bolded part). Shin splints are caused by constant repetitive stress and with undertrained/weak anterior leg muscles. The occasional tumbling on a track isn't going to increase that. Now if they were doing it constantly for an hour or two every single day, then possibly. Anyone with good tumbling form should theoretically be able to tumble on any surface just fine. Though I think we all know that not all cheerleaders have the best tumbling form.

I'm trying to research this one, I was checking some USAG safety materials and found this: https://usagym.org/PDFs/T&T/Junior Olympics/TU_errata_12-09.pdf

"Tumbling should take place only where a safe tumbling surface is provided. Tumbling surfaces should be sufficiently shock absorbent so as to reduce the risk of injury."

Now maybe it's not apples to apples, given that tumbling takes place far more often on mats than on rubberized track, but I can't imagine the USAG allowing gymnasts to tumble on rubberized track even on rare occasion. I find it strange that we, in cheer, do.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I was reading through this thread Article On Espnw Says Cheer Not A Sport | Fierce Board - The Voice Of Cheer and doing some thinking.

I am of the persuasion that stunting and tumbling are not safe on grass, basketball court, or rubberized track. However I would also like for teams to be able to safely showcase their cleanest, most difficult skills for the student body. So I'd like to know whether your schools use the following system, and how well it works for you. From a repetitive use standpoint, I don't believe that tumbling on any of those surfaces is any more dangerous than tumbling on a "dead" (i.e. non-sprung) floor. None of the above have any shock-absorbing qualities. From a catastrophic injury standpoint (i.e. head striking surface, etc), I've learned over the course of my trauma nurse career that distance of fall, and angle of impact have much more influence on severity of injury than does landing surface. Occasionally I'll have a kid tell me they'll do a stunt on the spring floor but are scared to do it on the non-spring floor. Depending on who the kid is, and their personality, I'll sometimes tell them, "honey, dead is dead, slamming into one is just as bad as slamming into the other." The right kid, with the right personality, will look at me like the exaggerating fool I am, and then go about doing the skill with no fear.

Fall-Sideline football cheer: No stunts, no tumbling, and no jumps. Crowd leading materials used regularly to encourage crowd participation (signs, poms, megaphones, flags, banners). IMO could be more effective because absence of stunts mean more kids available to hold props. Sideline football is a requirement for competition/basketball sideline in winter. Since this wouldn't be a sport, they could fundraise for necessities but the administration would cap how much is paid out of pocket by each athlete (perfectly fine if you're a frugal coach that can plan out your fundraising).

Winter-Competition/basketball sideline cheer: preseason takes place during the same time as sideline football, during which they practice 3-5 (ideally 5) days a week and if possible, hit the weight room every week (ideally 3-4 times a week). Also take tumbling 1x a week (during a non-lifting day) if possible. This practice schedule complements sideline football schedule, so that kids can do both. Sideline cheer used for F-ball are modified w/ stunts and tumbling added to do on mats during pre-game performances (some schools do these), and for halftime (if possible). Also, since participation in football/sideline would be necessary for participation in comp/B-ball sideline, behavior and commitment during involvement in the former would be evaluated in determining whether an athlete can participate in the latter. So if a kid is in sideline but is lazy, you might consider making them an alternate during the winter season.

Questions:

How would one be able to figure out pep rallies for football season? This might rule them out because a considerable amount of time has to be spent on prepare to execute, and then actually practicing stunts (and tumbling, if available) before publicly performing them. Pep rallies? What are those? We have had two all year. Our administration doesn't allow them. I can't say that I blame them. The student body just sees it as an opportunity to snapchat each other across the gym.

Would the preseason even work, or would it violate season limits? Could the preseason be ruled as intramural, or would that even work for cheer? I don't think there would be any violations in my state, but I do believe that you're talking about one hell of a load for kids to keep their grades up as well.

Would costs be lower compared to programs that stunt and tumble on the sideline as well as competing? I fail to see the comparison, but I also teach all of my own stunts. We take a tumbling class once a week, and that would likely not change.

Do any of you live in areas where sideline cheer is highly valued and garners lots of participation, or areas in which sideline cheer is grudgingly regarded as an accessory to competition cheer? How would a system like this work if implemented in your area (if there isn't one like it already)? I'm working towards next year on a plan to make the work load so unattractive for our team that only those who truly love cheerleading will even bother trying out.

Also, how would we adjust this to the varying schedules for cheer from state to state? Some states regard cheer as a sport but don't allow training to begin until August, others begin earlier, and the final competition dates vary not only from state to state but from school to school. I don't have an answer here. Up until I joined this board, I had no idea that some states played high school football games on Saturdays.....mind. blown.

I could very well be describing nothing new, but I just wanted your thoughts.

My thoughts in blue above

 

[AScheer]

This season for basketball they did not even cheer - there was always minimal room in the gym for them between the court and the pull out bleachers and players were always crashing into them, so when the AD asked if they felt it was safe the captains and coach all of whom hated basketball season emphatically said no, and that was that. It was actually kind of sad. Imho they should have figured out something better to make it work at the games but that was the route they chose.

Where can I sign up for an AD like this?!? I'm sure it would not go over well if we didn't cheer basketball. Our basketball parents/crowd/coaches raise complaints if we miss a game for any reason (no matter how good or valid.) They'll complain when we don't send a full squad. They'll complain if we don't perform at halftime. It's nice that they care, but super annoying. It would make my life though if we didn't cheer basketball! The seasons too long, the games are too frequent, and the bleachers are seriously painful. I just hate it and most the kids do too!

@OldskoolKYcheercoach agree, I had no idea until this board that schools played football at any time other than Friday nights.

 

[cheerisloving]

Where can I sign up for an AD like this?!? I'm sure it would not go over well if we didn't cheer basketball. Our basketball parents/crowd/coaches raise complaints if we miss a game for any reason (no matter how good or valid.) They'll complain when we don't send a full squad. They'll complain if we don't perform at halftime. It's nice that they care, but super annoying. It would make my life though if we didn't cheer basketball! The seasons too long, the games are too frequent, and the bleachers are seriously painful. I just hate it and most the kids do too!

Cheering basketball has always been a choice for individual team members since the competition season falls during football season. Some just pass the season all together and do their own thing. Most girls stay on, but some do other sports like actually play basketball or swim. Swim crossovers are excused if meets conflict with a game, although many try to compete early to make the game, we do have a pool in the school so it helps. Essentially basketball is more lax, although now it is used for skills building. So even if someone doesn't want to cheer they can still practice with the squad for comp season. We are the only district to have winter cheer, because the season was cut by our neighbor county so we try to use it to our advantage. Still games are less intense in skill but girls are pushed to get used to performing the skills they're learning. We have two games a week, and unless it's a double header we practice up until our game.

Our basketball teams are really, really good. Like you're cheering sold out games and going to states. Cheer and bball, both girls and boys in my day, are close because our coaches are married, and we date/are friends with each other so we want to be there. We would be more excited for basketball than football.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Where can I sign up for an AD like this?!? I'm sure it would not go over well if we didn't cheer basketball. Our basketball parents/crowd/coaches raise complaints if we miss a game for any reason (no matter how good or valid.) They'll complain when we don't send a full squad. They'll complain if we don't perform at halftime. It's nice that they care, but super annoying. It would make my life though if we didn't cheer basketball! The seasons too long, the games are too frequent, and the bleachers are seriously painful. I just hate it and most the kids do too!

@OldskoolKYcheercoach agree, I had no idea until this board that schools played football at any time other than Friday nights.

I would have to stop coaching cheer if we didn't cheer basketball. High school basketball is one of my favorite sports.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Where can I sign up for an AD like this?!? I'm sure it would not go over well if we didn't cheer basketball. Our basketball parents/crowd/coaches raise complaints if we miss a game for any reason (no matter how good or valid.) They'll complain when we don't send a full squad. They'll complain if we don't perform at halftime. It's nice that they care, but super annoying. It would make my life though if we didn't cheer basketball! The seasons too long, the games are too frequent, and the bleachers are seriously painful. I just hate it and most the kids do too!

@OldskoolKYcheercoach agree, I had no idea until this board that schools played football at any time other than Friday nights.

There are schools here who play on Saturday AM. We do not, but crazy to me.

 

[Official OWECheer]

Cheering basketball has always been a choice for individual team members since the competition season falls during football season. Some just pass the season all together and do their own thing. Most girls stay on, but some do other sports like actually play basketball or swim. Swim crossovers are excused if meets conflict with a game, although many try to compete early to make the game, we do have a pool in the school so it helps. Essentially basketball is more lax, although now it is used for skills building. So even if someone doesn't want to cheer they can still practice with the squad for comp season. We are the only district to have winter cheer, because the season was cut by our neighbor county so we try to use it to our advantage. Still games are less intense in skill but girls are pushed to get used to performing the skills they're learning. We have two games a week, and unless it's a double header we practice up until our game.

Our basketball teams are really, really good. Like you're cheering sold out games and going to states. Cheer and bball, both girls and boys in my day, are close because our coaches are married, and we date/are friends with each other so we want to be there. We would be more excited for basketball than football.

That sounds awesome!

 

[TealShades]

It's so interesting that cheerleaders cheer on the bleachers. I always wondered how you guys cheered with 3 lines for basketball season. My old high school had/has big gym floor. Cheerleaders stand in front of the home team stands(nice chairs too). Visiting cheerleaders stand on the court in back of the goal. Still enough room for the visitors to have two lines. Most if not all cheerleaders in my state cheer on the court. My old high school is more a basketball school than football. We didn't have a football team while I went to school. I love basketball more too.

 

[LittleMissA17]

There are schools here who play on Saturday AM. We do not, but crazy to me.

That was my school for JV football. Nothing like driving an hour and a half for a 10am game with "bus leaves at 8am"

 

[cheerisloving]

That sounds awesome!

Oh it is. I cheer at a D1A school and it still doesn't compare to cheering at some of those big basketball games. It is one of the best things at my school and the community. It's not surprising to see teachers, locals and alumni in the stands.