All-Star Redfining Positions In Stunts

[King]

Starting from our Cheeropedia thread and getting some traction with @BlueCat we want to re-define what it is to be in a stunt and how many people are required for it.

BEFORE anyone goes off the deep end, the changes actually make a LOT of sense so read through them first. Bluecat will submit them at some point to @RulesGuy . I want everyone to take a look at them and point out the flaws.

First change - anyone who is responsible to hold up a flyer is called a base. Group stunts can have up to 4 bases (main base, side base, back base, front base). As long as your job is to get a stunt to hit you are a base.

Second change - a spotter is someone who's job is NOT to assist in helping a stunt hit, but to be available in case the stunt falls and assist in catching the flyer. This just makes sense and LEGALLY (not all-star rules legal but in court cases type legal) this also makes a lot of sense.

So why all the fuss for this? First it makes way more sense to all people new to cheer. A spotter on tumbling when you are learning is known to assist for learning and safety purposes... NOt to correctly attempt and hit the skill. Applying this logic across all of cheer makes sense.

Second it will help scoring for the new push for coed stunts. Stunts have either 1, 2, 3, or 4 bases. 3 or more bases are considered group stunts. 2 base stunts can be considered single base with an assist. 1 base stunts are considered true single based. Single bases stunts would require a spotter, but that spotters job would ONLY be the defined version up top AND to help on the cradle (which makes sense). If a team attempts 5 single based stunts but the spotters go in and help 3 of them than the spotter instantly turns into a base. 3 of those stunts are now single based assist. It truly rewards single based stunting.

Third - it gets rid of that STUPID rule saying someone is only a spot if they grab the ankle or wrist. Why is it stupid? If any of you have ever lifted weights you know that that you lift with both arms evenly, you do not lift one arm bent and the other straight. It makes no anatomical sense. You are strongest and most stable when you can push evenly. If a 'spot' is required to hold the ankle and bend right arm OR hold the toe and bend the left arm to grab the wrist we are actually making the stunt less safe, more difficult, and not really changing the look or difficulty of the stunt except a stupid grip. This is akin to us old school stunters who would toss and catch stunts on their closed fist instead of an open hand because it was harder. Why? Cause we thought it was cool... but really though it looked the exact same, no one would compete it because you could barely tell, and you would drop them... a lot. As someone who has taught a LOT of coed stunts and side based people who are learning I can tell you I could train and help a base learn a lot as long as I could grab and lift evenly. For fun I used to take my wife and teach little tumblers rewinds with me as a side base. I could never have done that if I had to grab ankle or wrist. Anyways!

Specifically for a spring floor (because that is the safest surface to stunt, tumble, or do anything on) bluecat has created this matrix. This matrix is nice because it can be adjusted for non spring, grass, basketball court, grass, a running track, your personal room your gym gets at a competition. As well the matrix shows cradle requirements. Feel free to question, tear apart, and what not.

 

[socratesofcheer]

@kingston
Changing terminology is great.
Grid is great with 2 possible exceptions
Level 1 below prep level stunts. (knee stunts don't really need 2 people)
Level 4 prep level stunts (shoulder sit/stand and a chair don't need 2 people)
- That may adjust the cradle for level 4 a well.

 

[King]

@kingston
Changing terminology is great.
Grid is great with 2 possible exceptions
Level 1 below prep level stunts. (knee stunts don't really need 2 people)
Level 4 prep level stunts (shoulder sit/stand and a chair don't need 2 people)
- That may adjust the cradle for level 4 a well.

Agree with the level 1. Adjsuted.
Agree with shoulder sits and and stands.. but not sure how to classify that exactly. Are there any instances in level 4 where prep level should have an extra person (that is not transitional?)

Should their be consideration for entrances and transitions?

As far as cradles though I think two people makes sense. If you want to do a shoulder sit or stand and not cradle you shouldn't need another person, but if you want to cradle that should require two people until you get to level 6. Not to over complicate but adding something to the affect of 0 skill assisted (so they have to touch on the way down) dismounts to the performance surface do no require any extra athletes?

 

[socratesofcheer]

As far as cradles though I think two people makes sense. If you want to do a shoulder sit or stand and not cradle you shouldn't need another person, but if you want to cradle that should require two people until you get to level 6. Not to over complicate but adding something to the affect of 0 skill assisted (so they have to touch on the way down) dismounts to the performance surface do no require any extra athletes?

I'm thinking about a chair sit(not that they are ever used) also, level 5 cradles only require 1 person.

 

[King]

I'm thinking about a chair sit(not that they are ever used) also, level 5 cradles only require 1 person.

I think the chair would be an unintended consequence.. but I think an acceptable one. Shoulder sits can be an exception for every level. Remember this chart is written so that it is the required amount of bases and spotters to fill the position requirements. so in level 2 two bases could toss extension as long as a third person was spotting. If the spotter touched the stunt to help it hit they would become a base, but still meet the requirements for the stunt.

Should the prep level single based cradle with no skills use two people in level 5?

 

[rvnblue]

I have a major grievance with the level 5 cradle requirements. For all extended skills, I believe there should only be two bases required to catch a cradle.
-For single based stunts, this means you would have one spotter and another person unable to assist in another stunt, reducing the number of possible stunts
-For protection of the head, I understand the reason for a third person; however, proper technique being taught to flyers will eliminate the necessity (insert Cheeropdia link )
-The jump from three to a single catcher for extended (LA) stunts with a single skill dismount seems strange, for the lack of better wording. Although level 6 is supposed to be closely related to college cheer, level 6 is still all star, and a full down in level 6 is the same full down in level 5.

Level 6 cradle requirements:
-A front flip to cradle from prep only requires a single catcher when a double down in level 5 requires 3?

 

[BlueCat]

I think this could work, it just needs to be hashed over. The original "matrix" was done hurriedly to just get the idea of it out there. Any of the numbers could change. I am intrigued by Kingston's idea of potentially having a different matrix for different surfaces. This makes common sense to me. At some point, allowances could be made for different scenarios athletes/teams find themselves in. It is not realistic to suggest that all stunting on spring floors is safe. It is also possible to be reasonably safe on other surfaces. (Example: extension with 2 spotters on grass would likely be safer than an extension with no spotters on a spring floor.)

There should be something in the "preamble" or intro that states something to the effect that:

This grid represents the minimum number of required athletes for particular stunts at each level. This assumes that each athlete is experienced and properly trained in stunting, spotting, and safety techniques. If conditions are less than ideal (not on spring floor, learning new stunt, etc.), we highly recommend using additional spotters and/or mats beyond what is stated in the grid. Even in the best of conditions, serious injuries are possible. Please use proper progressions, proper spotting/safety techniques, and common sense to do everything reasonably possible to keep athletes safe.

 

[King]

I have a major grievance with the level 5 cradle requirements. For all extended skills, I believe there should only be two bases required to catch a cradle.
-For single based stunts, this means you would have one spotter and another person unable to assist in another stunt, reducing the number of possible stunts
-For protection of the head, I understand the reason for a third person; however, proper technique being taught to flyers will eliminate the necessity (insert Cheeropdia link )
-The jump from three to a single catcher for extended (LA) stunts with a single skill dismount seems strange, for the lack of better wording. Although level 6 is supposed to be closely related to college cheer, level 6 is still all star, and a full down in level 6 is the same full down in level 5.

Level 6 cradle requirements:
-A front flip to cradle from prep only requires a single catcher when a double down in level 5 requires 3?

Grievance is an odd word.

So what would you recommend to fix?

 

[BlueCat]

I have a major grievance with the level 5 cradle requirements. For all extended skills, I believe there should only be two bases required to catch a cradle.
-For single based stunts, this means you would have one spotter and another person unable to assist in another stunt, reducing the number of possible stunts
-For protection of the head, I understand the reason for a third person; however, proper technique being taught to flyers will eliminate the necessity (insert Cheeropdia link )
-The jump from three to a single catcher for extended (LA) stunts with a single skill dismount seems strange, for the lack of better wording. Although level 6 is supposed to be closely related to college cheer, level 6 is still all star, and a full down in level 6 is the same full down in level 5.

Level 6 cradle requirements:
-A front flip to cradle from prep only requires a single catcher when a double down in level 5 requires 3?

Couple of points:

1. Trying to maximize the number of possible stunts is not really a goal of the grid. The goal is finding the minimum amount of athletes needed to perform the stunt with reasonable safety in competition conditions.

2. I could see perhaps dropping minimum catchers on single-skill extended cradle to two, but I think there definitely still need to be 3 for 2+ skills (double downs, etc.)

 

[King]

Couple of points:

1. Trying to maximize the number of possible stunts is not really a goal of the grid. The goal is finding the minimum amount of athletes needed to perform the stunt with reasonable safety in competition conditions.

2. I could see perhaps dropping minimum catchers on single-skill extended cradle to two, but I think there definitely still need to be 3 for 2+ skills (double downs, etc.)

What if there was a rule that says from stunt to cradle you may not decrease the amount of people involved in a stunt?

 

[rvnblue]

Couple of points:

1. Trying to maximize the number of possible stunts is not really a goal of the grid. The goal is finding the minimum amount of athletes needed to perform the stunt with reasonable safety in competition conditions.

2. I could see perhaps dropping minimum catchers on single-skill extended cradle to two, but I think there definitely still need to be 3 for 2+ skills (double downs, etc.)

I am wondering your reasoning behind the necessity for three catchers for double downs?

 

[King]

The good news is people are debating the cradle matrix more than the stunt matrix. I assume that means that one is spot on?

 

[rvnblue]

What if there was a rule that says from stunt to cradle you may not decrease the amount of people involved in a stunt?

I don't particularly like this.
Example:
Full up, pike over transition, reload, express up, body positions, double down.
For the full up a front base is needed. That front base, then goes and forms another group for the express up. Why would she be needed for the cradle?

 

[rvnblue]

Grievance is an odd word.

So what would you recommend to fix?

grievance is a perfect word for how I felt...hah

 

[rvnblue]

The good news is people are debating the cradle matrix more than the stunt matrix. I assume that means that one is spot on?

I disagree with having three bases necessary for extended (LA) in level 4. Maybe I'm thinking too much towards the senior division, so is it a possibility to divide levels into age categories because of strength differences?