High School "sandbagging" In High School Cheer?

[mncheerqueen]

I know people often talk about in the all star world of sandbagging by teams by crossing over higher level athletes to lower, etc but I was curious about this discussion in the high school world. For example I know of a school who has majority squad tucks but competes as a "non tumble" because it is easier for them to win that division due to less teams competing in it. Are situations like this common in the high school cheer world? Is sandbagging really prevalent at competitions such as NHSCC and NCA? Or is it rare in high school cheer? I was curious to hear some of your thoughts on this!

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I know people often talk about in the all star world of sandbagging by teams by crossing over higher level athletes to lower, etc but I was curious about this discussion in the high school world. For example I know of a school who has majority squad tucks but competes as a "non tumble" because it is easier for them to win that division due to less teams competing in it. Are situations like this common in the high school cheer world? Is sandbagging really prevalent at competitions such as NHSCC and NCA? Or is it rare in high school cheer? I was curious to hear some of your thoughts on this!

Interesting question, I guess it never occurred to me to compete non-tumbling with a good tumbling team. My kids would mutiny.

I think there's probably less of it at NHSCC because there's only 1 level. Everyone is bound to the same set of rules. The only thing I can think of besides the non tumble example you cited would be competing a varsity team as JV. Now I'm curious if you have to have a varsity team in attendance or so some kind of proof that it's truly a JV team to get into the JV divisions.

 

[Hscoach10]

Interesting question, I guess it never occurred to me to compete non-tumbling with a good tumbling team. My kids would mutiny.

I think there's probably less of it at NHSCC because there's only 1 level. Everyone is bound to the same set of rules. The only thing I can think of besides the non tumble example you cited would be competing a varsity team as JV. Now I'm curious if you have to have a varsity team in attendance or so some kind of proof that it's truly a JV team to get into the JV divisions.

This year in our JV teams division there were a few teams with no varsity. I have a problem with it but not really sure what could be done. I would say proof of varsity required but i know there have been (rare) cases where a Jv might get a bid and their varsity doesn't? I just don't see why anyone would want to compete as a Jv if they are truly the varisty team at their school! These teams had really good tumbling- better than a lot of varsitys. I was wondering if they just had a majority of young kids and that's why they were able to compete as a Jv.

 

[AScheer]

After watching UCA nationals this year, I'm convinced there are teams that go JV just to have a better shot of winning. Teams I've never heard of were blowing me away. Another coach and myself were watching & wondering how we had never heard of their varsity team if the JV was THAT good. Looking through the schedule they didn't have a varsity team there. That lead us to believe they were playing down for better chances.

I do know of one team that goes non-tumbling. They used to be in our division and they did well. Switched to non-tumbling and have a few jackets now. Not sure if it's sandbagging or if they're just setting their team up for the best chance. It's not something I would personally do.

 

[AndyT_T]

Theres a good chance I will take my team intermediate at nationals even though they can stunt at an advanced level. We only have 4 people that can tumble at all right now (Though we're working hard to fix that) and they have a roundoff tuck and a standing handspring.
It's a difficult decision because we would have to compete advanced stunts at state regardless of what we do at nationals so many of the athletes don't want to work their butts off for a killer stunting routine but then drop down to intermediate and redo the routine for nationals. But we just don't have the tumbling to compete at that level. Even in small coed advanced (smallest advanced division at NCA) the team that won from texas had squad layouts, we just can't compete with that.

Does that count as sandbagging?

 

[mncheerqueen]

Theres a good chance I will take my team intermediate at nationals even though they can stunt at an advanced level. We only have 4 people that can tumble at all right now (Though we're working hard to fix that) and they have a roundoff tuck and a standing handspring.
It's a difficult decision because we would have to compete advanced stunts at state regardless of what we do at nationals so many of the athletes don't want to work their butts off for a killer stunting routine but then drop down to intermediate and redo the routine for nationals. But we just don't have the tumbling to compete at that level. Even in small coed advanced (smallest advanced division at NCA) the team that won from texas had squad layouts, we just can't compete with that.

Does that count as sandbagging?

I would not think that is sandbagging at all because your team wouldn't have the tumbling skills to be competitive in that division so it makes sense to drop down.
The teams I was referring to are teams that have all the skills (stunting and tumbling wise) to be competitive in a tumbling division but dropping to non tumble because it is a fairly new division and doesn't have many as many teams as Medium Varsity or a Varsity level team dropping to JV, again because it is full of actual JV teams (this year at UCA though I do question how many of those teams are actual "JV" squads).
I was always told that a team's Varsity must compete for a JV to compete at UCA, but after this year's Nationals I see that may not be the case. Should this rule be implemented?

 

[coacha]

Our state competition does not have levels, a non-tumbling division, or a JV division so....impossible to sandbag. Most of our local comps are similar, although I guess you could put your Varsity in a JV division (what kids would go for that?)

I do know a local team that took out their tumbling to go non-tumbling at NHSCC.

I think we do kids a serious disservice when we play down for the sake of winning.

 

[tojofasho]

Theres a good chance I will take my team intermediate at nationals even though they can stunt at an advanced level. We only have 4 people that can tumble at all right now (Though we're working hard to fix that) and they have a roundoff tuck and a standing handspring.
It's a difficult decision because we would have to compete advanced stunts at state regardless of what we do at nationals so many of the athletes don't want to work their butts off for a killer stunting routine but then drop down to intermediate and redo the routine for nationals. But we just don't have the tumbling to compete at that level. Even in small coed advanced (smallest advanced division at NCA) the team that won from texas had squad layouts, we just can't compete with that.

Does that count as sandbagging?

I do the same thing with my girls, and I don't think that'd qualify as sandbagging because you wouldn't be very competitive in advanced without that tumbling. Just a heads up, there is quite a bit of sandbagging in the Intermediate level though. There's a team that wins state here in AZ frequently that has insane stunting and tumbling difficulty that competes intermediate at USA Nationals each year.

 

[AndyT_T]

I do the same thing with my girls, and I don't think that'd qualify as sandbagging because you wouldn't be very competitive in advanced without that tumbling. Just a heads up, there is quite a bit of sandbagging in the Intermediate level though. There's a team that wins state here in AZ frequently that has insane stunting and tumbling difficulty that competes intermediate at USA Nationals each year.

It sucks because they have the stunts to do well in advanced, but not against Mater Dei

 

[coacha]

It sucks because they have the stunts to do well in advanced, but not against Mater Dei

I know it's not often a popular opinion, but tumbling isn't the only thing on the scoresheet. If they can hang with the stunts, why not try? you might not win, but there is more to competing than winning. Wouldn't your kids rather do everything they can rather than take difficulty out?

 

[coacha]

I guess I just come at this from a different place than others. My team is not going to win. We do our damnest, give it our all, but know that they are young and their difficulty isn't there. only 1 team can come in first. It's one of the things I don't understand about all star cheer.

 

[tojofasho]

I guess I just come at this from a different place than others. My team is not going to win. We do our damnest, give it our all, but know that they are young and their difficulty isn't there. only 1 team can come in first. It's one of the things I don't understand about all star cheer.

I'm a firm believer in "If we can't even get to finals in Intermediate, why would we compete Advanced?" Yes, we have some advanced stunts, and we even have one or two advanced tumbling passes, but nothing to the level of these other Advanced teams - they are scary good. We may water down one or two skills but it's better than being one of the worst in the Advanced division, in my opinion.

I don't care about winning, I'm fine placing in the middle, but I'm also not going to put my team in a division where they're essentially guaranteed a bottom 5 finish just because I wasn't willing to water down one or two stunts. To each their own.

 

[coacha]

I'm a firm believer in "If we can't even get to finals in Intermediate, why would we compete Advanced?" Yes, we have some advanced stunts, and we even have one or two advanced tumbling passes, but nothing to the level of these other Advanced teams - they are scary good. We may water down one or two skills but it's better than being one of the worst in the Advanced division, in my opinion.

I don't care about winning, I'm fine placing in the middle, but I'm also not going to put my team in a division where they're essentially guaranteed a bottom 5 finish just because I wasn't willing to water down one or two stunts. To each their own.

I was more replying to the "we have all the elite stunts" but only a little of the tumbling thus are going to water down. If you only have to water down 1 or 2 skills, you're probably already in the right division.

 

[ScottyB]

only 1 team can come in first.

that's why cheer's biggest problem was seeing that statement as the problem. too many divisions to appease egomaniac coaches and parents.

 

[mncheerqueen]

So considering at NHSCC, do you guys think it's necessary to have teams separated by D1 or D2? It makes sense when it first started but now the teams in both divisions have pretty equal talent so is it really needed?