All-Star Spirit Of Texas And Top Gun Illegal Passes?

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Jan 8, 2011
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I really need to meet you someday...we've been using the same brain for a couple years now... ha

Or grab Rachel McGuigan while she's home and make her take a pic with you so I can at least know what you look like :)
No prob! I'll def make her take a pic, but I'm the big beard. And as long as Sean from WC keeps trimming his I'll keep being the "guy with the beard"
 
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Mar 22, 2010
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I only come here every now and then to address certain issues. I also understand that we, as the USASF, will always get slammed because we are the governing body.
However, so many of the comments are way off base in this thread and give false information. It doesn't make sense for me to go over each one but rather cover as much as I can in an overall reply.
The rule that makes a BHS>BHS>Full>BHS>Double illegal is NOT a new rule nor is it new because of the clarification. If you performed this and received a penalty, then it was by your doing not because you don't follow me on twitter. The clarifications are put out to help everyone in the industry get on the same page. The clarifications do not change the rules.
Do I think we are mistake free or word things the best way? Nope. But we do our best to make those corrections when we find them. As a matter of fact we are discussing this exact tumbling rules at this time because we agree that it doesn't make sense that an easier skill is illegal when a more difficult skill of the same type is legal.
What I think most people fail to realize that we do not see it as an "Us versus You" situation. We want to do what is best for the industry to make sure it is safe and is still here for many years to come. I for one, love All Star cheerleading. I am not "against" coaches and teams.
I hope you all have a successful and safe competition season (and Christmas season).
We, the USASF, will continue to do our best to make the rules more clear and the enforcement more consistent.
 
Dec 16, 2009
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Los Angeles California
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I only come here every now and then to address certain issues. I also understand that we, as the USASF, will always get slammed because we are the governing body.
However, so many of the comments are way off base in this thread and give false information. It doesn't make sense for me to go over each one but rather cover as much as I can in an overall reply.
The rule that makes a BHS>BHS>Full>BHS>Double illegal is NOT a new rule nor is it new because of the clarification. If you performed this and received a penalty, then it was by your doing not because you don't follow me on twitter. The clarifications are put out to help everyone in the industry get on the same page. The clarifications do not change the rules.
Do I think we are mistake free or word things the best way? Nope. But we do our best to make those corrections when we find them. As a matter of fact we are discussing this exact tumbling rules at this time because we agree that it doesn't make sense that an easier skill is illegal when a more difficult skill of the same type is legal.
What I think most people fail to realize that we do not see it as an "Us versus You" situation. We want to do what is best for the industry to make sure it is safe and is still here for many years to come. I for one, love All Star cheerleading. I am not "against" coaches and teams.
I hope you all have a successful and safe competition season (and Christmas season).
We, the USASF, will continue to do our best to make the rules more clear and the enforcement more consistent.

What I and a ton of other people in indusrty are asking for is that you the governing body find a place to put these clarifications. If you have to take time out of your day to tweet about a rule that means more then one person must have asked about the rule. I went on to your website usasfrules.com to look for the latest information. If that rule states that a twisting skill canceled out the previous skills in front of it then I would say I clearly broke the rule but since the rule has a little grey area I would just have liked the clarification that you announced prior to this competition to have been posted on your rules website. With the Usasf making all these new rules to lookout for athletes safety or to level out the playing field more, you are going to find more coaches trying to find a competitive advantage to not make all of our routines look like a compulsory gymnastics routine and find loop holes. With that all we are asking is once you find that someone finds a loop hole please have One place where you place these clarifications. I know your job isn't easy but as a customer of a large company when I ask one of your employees where the clarification was written and she tells me "don't you follow Les on twitter, he tweeted about two weeks ago" that does not suffice as a proper answer. I hope you have a great Holiday as well and that you continue to do what's best for the athletes in the sport.

Shawn
 
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If that rule states that a twisting skill canceled out the previous skills in front of it then I would say I clearly broke the rule but since the rule has a little grey area I would just have liked the clarification that you announced prior to this competition to have been posted on your rules website.

I'm pretty sure that the original rule said (before the clarifications were added) "Skills involving two twists (i.e. Double fulls) must be immediately preceded by a minimum of two backward traveling, non-twisting tumbling skills." Not sure how "immediately preceded" can mean anything other than 'right before with nothing else in the middle'.

Maybe that's just me, but it doesn't really seem grey at all. It might not make sense (and Les said they are looking at it for that reason), but it's pretty straight-forward.
 
Dec 16, 2009
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Again if more then one coach read this as did and there needed to be clarification I can see your point. Then to go and clarify a rule under it which is a harder pass of bhs whip double bhs double just makes it confusing. So if my athlete spun one more time it would have been legal isn't clear.
 
Mar 22, 2010
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Memphis, TN
I am a(n)...
USASF
Shawn, I understand your frustration and hope I can clear this up or at least bring a different perspective to it.
From the beginning, the rule has always said "...must be immediately preceded by a minimum..."
The "immediately preceded" part has always been there and makes it very clear what is required. Again, this is not to combat you but it may be possible that you overlooked this part when doing choreography.
On your other point, the clarifications are always placed in the rules. This is the "one" place you can find these clarifications. Unless, I am misunderstanding your request. Are you requesting we have a separate page that only has the newest clarifications for a particular year? That may be a good idea if that is what you are suggesting. We are always looking for the best way to communicate with the industry and are always trying new things. (Hint: We may have found the best way and it will be announced pretty soon if it works.)
You also mentioned coaches and loopholes (or put a different way - grey areas).
I coached for 26 years and consider myself as a very creative choreographer especially when it comes to stunts and pyramids. I too lived in the grey area as a coach. I have also overseen the USASF rules since the beginning of the USASF and 90% of the coaches I encounter claim to work in the grey area. I respect that and love it. I am always excited to see what new and creative things coaches come up with. It is what keeps us all in this industry. Unfortunately, many times what people claim to be grey or just plain illegal.

JayySoFierce - From the looks of the emoticon at the end of your post, I am assuming you were making a joke and weren't actually offended. But just to clear things up for anyone interested: As a God fearing Christian, I will always say Christmas and I do not apologize for it. If someone is offended, then they have chosen to be offended.
 
Jan 8, 2011
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Shawn, I understand your frustration and hope I can clear this up or at least bring a different perspective to it.
From the beginning, the rule has always said "...must be immediately preceded by a minimum..."
The "immediately preceded" part has always been there and makes it very clear what is required. Again, this is not to combat you but it may be possible that you overlooked this part when doing choreography.
On your other point, the clarifications are always placed in the rules. This is the "one" place you can find these clarifications. Unless, I am misunderstanding your request. Are you requesting we have a separate page that only has the newest clarifications for a particular year? That may be a good idea if that is what you are suggesting. We are always looking for the best way to communicate with the industry and are always trying new things. (Hint: We may have found the best way and it will be announced pretty soon if it works.)
You also mentioned coaches and loopholes (or put a different way - grey areas).
I coached for 26 years and consider myself as a very creative choreographer especially when it comes to stunts and pyramids. I too lived in the grey area as a coach. I have also overseen the USASF rules since the beginning of the USASF and 90% of the coaches I encounter claim to work in the grey area. I respect that and love it. I am always excited to see what new and creative things coaches come up with. It is what keeps us all in this industry. Unfortunately, many times what people claim to be grey or just plain illegal.

JayySoFierce - From the looks of the emoticon at the end of your post, I am assuming you were making a joke and weren't actually offended. But just to clear things up for anyone interested: As a God fearing Christian, I will always say Christmas and I do not apologize for it. If someone is offended, then they have chosen to be offended.
I will always have a problem with rules put into place that were not data driven, that is the only problem I have with the new tumbling rule/rules. As a God fearing Christian myself I 100% support your last statement! Merry Christmas to all!!!
 
Dec 16, 2009
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I now know what you meant by this rule but when first reading the rule, especially since it is new to have to read far into tumbling legistics, I read the rule as you have to have two non twisting elements prior to the double. So when reading the rule the pass bhs whip full whip double would actually have 3 non twisting elements prior to it. I know now that you are canceling all prior skills before it with the single twist. What was confusing is that the clarification under states that bhs whip double bhs double is legal, where I thought we were ok was that rclarification shows there is only need for one non twisting element prior to the final double. I have coached multiple world champion athletes that are power tumblers and take progression very seriously I think with that mind set and wording of the rules I skipped over the fact that an easier skill would be illegal compared to a harder skill. I know with a ton of change comes scrutiny all I am asking is we find a central location that we can all learn from. Also where can I send my routine in for video review prior to the competition so I never have this issue again? RulesGuy
 
Jan 8, 2011
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I now know what you meant by this rule but when first reading the rule, especially since it is new to have to read far into tumbling legistics, I read the rule as you have to have two non twisting elements prior to the double. So when reading the rule the pass bhs whip full whip double would actually have 3 non twisting elements prior to it. I know now that you are canceling all prior skills before it with the single twist. What was confusing is that the clarification under states that bhs whip double bhs double is legal, where I thought we were ok was that rclarification shows there is only need for one non twisting element prior to the final double. I have coached multiple world champion athletes that are power tumblers and take progression very seriously I think with that mind set and wording of the rules I skipped over the fact that an easier skill would be illegal compared to a harder skill. I know with a ton of change comes scrutiny all I am asking is we find a central location that we can all learn from. Also where can I send my routine in for video review prior to the competition so I never have this issue again? RulesGuy
If you go onto the usasf rules area there is an e-mail you can submit "questions and pieces of a video. I know that they specifically ask that you not send in your entire routine. But if there is anything even close to gray I send it in.
 
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