All-Star The Summit 2017 Video Thread

[FamousMatty]

The 4.2 division was created originally to be used as a sort of half year team that offered High School cheerleaders a level that fit more appropriately with the skill set they were using in their schools. It has since been used differently, but this was its initial purpose, not as a catch all for "out to pasture" athletes as you have suggested.

 

[FamUsM0m]

Level R5 to level 2 isn't leveling down, 13 years experience up to R5 is not level 1 or 2. If the score sheet decides one blocking athlete is enough to make that much of a difference to a high level team, then that same athlete is making the same impact on a lower level in reverse. The score sheet is not all about tumbling, and again, 4.2 was designed specifically with these athletes in mind. Level 1 and 2 should not become the place for "put out to pasture" multi year high level athletes. Beginner athletes need a place to go, and gym owners should want them to have a place to go without having to go head to head with multi year high level athletes. If a coach needs a place for a higher level blocking athlete(s) then they should make a 4.2 team, if they don't have enough athletes for a 4.2 then that's unfortunate. One athlete does make a difference or gyms wouldn't be removing them from teams when they no longer have a skill. I'm having a hard time believing I have to convince anyone that every athlete matters and makes an impact on a team.

So, because they don't have enough athletes to field a 4.2 team, my cp should be told "too bad, take a hike. We need to keep room for our beginners" ? It's become quite obvious that you're "new" to cheer. So, what about the kids who start the season on a level 2 but halfway through the year they gain skills up to level 4. Should they be kicked off the team because Little Suzie on level 1 got her bhs and should be moved up? Your logic makes absolutely no sense. I MIGHT understand where you're coming from (or at least understand your frustration) if my cp was a flyer. There are only so many flying spots. But, she's a base. She's not in front for jumps, she's not in front for standing tumbling, she's not last pass. So please explain to me what advantage the coach has by keeping my cp on a level 2/3 team when she was once (years ago) at a level 5R? She can't throw any skills higher than the team she's currently competing with, Her standing tumbling skills are the same as everyone else on the team. Not because she's cheered forever, but because the whole TEAM practices to have good skills together. She doesn't slack off, she goes to EVERY practice (she's missed 2 practices in 13 years) So, what advantage does the coach have with placing a max level 3 athlete to fill in on a level 2?None.

Edited to add: If you can't see progression of level 5 teams from 2 years ago to today, you're not watching cheer at all. The stunts they did 2 years ago wouldn't get them a world's bid today. It's constantly evolving. When 6 years ago a high to high tick-tock was mind blowing, today it's standard. When 2 years ago, inverted mounts were so new and innovative, today they are pretty common. As the score sheets/rules change, so do the routines and creativity of stunts and tumbling passes. Where a robhs full was amazing on level 5 6 years ago, now if you don't have a double, good luck making a world's team. It is ABSOLUTELY progressing. If you can't see that, maybe you need to watch some comparative videos.

 

[catlady]

@catlady You're way off base with your posts.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I will stand by it is unfortunate that beginner athletes have to compete with multi year and level athletes for a spot on level 1 and 2.

@FamUsM0m there are athletes every year that are told, "I'm sorry we don't have a team at this gym for you." I'm going into year seven, I don't consider that new, but if you do, so be it. I had two older athletes that began on level 1 with absolutely no skills, I have a lot of respect for Sr. lower levels and their athletes. While you may feel your 13 year, cheered every level up to R5 athlete is now only level 2 worthy, I don't, I give blocking high level athletes more credit than that.

Level 5 certainly has not evolved in six years what level 1 and 2 have, there is no comparison.

@FamousMatty whether or not 4.2 was created for blocking high level and multi year athletes, it is now what it is used for (along with your HS example) and the most appropriate place for them.

And, done. This is in Varsity and USASF's hands, but for the integrity of the "sport" and the need to keep beginning levels available to beginners I hope they make a change.

 

[XtremeWpg]

You are entitled to your opinion, and I will stand by it is unfortunate that beginner athletes have to compete with multi year and level athletes for a spot on level 1 and 2.

I wouldn't say that it is unfortunate. That's the reality.

Who's to say they don't have multiple Senior 2 teams. One that went to Summit and one that compete locally for beginners. Many gyms have multiple teams at each level and age group to accommodate for this.

What IS unfortunate that you're unable to see that what was best for this athlete and this team has happened.

How exactly do you suggest teams be formed then? If a child with 10 years of experience who just can't seem to get past working level 2/3 tumbling isn't meant for a level 2 team, then where should they go? If I had all level 5 tumbling 6 years ago, and now couldn't throw it for the life of me and can't get past a BHS, should my program be forced to place me on level 5 because in my 20s I could tumble and in my 30s I'm a potato?

ETA- besides the obvious answer that duh, in your 30s you really can only be on levels 4-6

 

[Eyes On The Prize]

Level R5 to level 2 isn't leveling down, 13 years experience up to R5 is not level 1 or 2.

Levels 1 & 2 are for athletes whose skill levels are 1 & 2 for that year, regardless of the numbers of years they have cheered or what skills they previously had.

If the score sheet decides one blocking athlete is enough to make that much of a difference to a high level team, then that same athlete is making the same impact on a lower level in reverse.

The scoresheet isn't about one athlete, its about the team. One athlete does not make a team. No one is arguing that.

The score sheet is not all about tumbling, and again, 4.2 was designed specifically with these athletes in mind.

The score sheet is not all about tumbling, you're right, but I'd say 90% of your "skill level" is based on your tumbling. Stunting is easy to learn in the grand scheme of cheer. You could pull anyone off the street in May (tryouts) and by November/December (start of the comp season) they could be doing level 5 stunts. Tumbling not so much.

Level 1 and 2 should not become the place for "put out to pasture" multi year high level athletes.

Kids bodies change drastically between the ages of 5 and 18 which can affect skills. A kid's dedication level over the years change which can affect skills. A family's financial situation can change over the years which can affect skills. For you to refer to kids who have lost skills over the years for a multitude of reasons as "put out to pasture" is whack. Eww.

Beginner athletes need a place to go, and gym owners should want them to have a place to go without having to go head to head with multi year high level athletes.

Beginner athletes do have a place to go.... It's mostly levels 1 & 2. I've never personally seen anyone get turned away because they were not experienced enough for level 1 or 2 and were edged out by an experienced athlete. Maybe it happens to a handful of people a year at like Rays or Cheer Athletics or any other Mega gym. No gym owner wants to turn anyone away but in RARE OCCASIONS sometimes you have to if you truly don't have a place for them.

Kids being turned away because theres no spot for them on a team (at tryouts) happens like 0.3% of the time in cheer. Nine times out of ten there is another gym in the area that will have a place for a beginner athlete if the gym truly has no place for the athlete. And if there's no place they can go to cheer, the athlete can take classes to improve their skills so they can have a better chance at making a team next year. God forbid you might have to be competitive to make a team in a competitive sport. :rolleyes: Even at the most basic level.

If a coach needs a place for a higher level blocking athlete(s) then they should make a 4.2 team, if they don't have enough athletes for a 4.2 then that's unfortunate.

So you want to accommodate beginner 15 year olds but for 15 year olds who block on their skills and need to drop to a lower level team where their new skill level is better suited but the gym doesn't have a team to accomodate them then f*ck it???? Lolololololololol.

One athlete can make a difference if that athlete puts the team over whatever skill ratio the coaches are trying to uphold for the scoresheet, or gyms wouldn't be removing them from teams when they no longer have a skill or for other reasons because every case is different and coaches usually know better than some random person on the internet.

FTFY.

I'm having a hard time believing I have to convince anyone that every athlete matters and makes an impact on a team.

Nice fallacy.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I will stand by it is unfortunate that beginner athletes have to compete with multi year and level athletes for a spot on level 1 and 2.

That happens everywhere in everything. Welcome to real life.

 

[FamUsM0m]

I wouldn't say that it is unfortunate. That's the reality.

Who's to say they don't have multiple Senior 2 teams. One that went to Summit and one that compete locally for beginners. Many gyms have multiple teams at each level and age group to accommodate for this.

What IS unfortunate that you're unable to see that what was best for this athlete and this team has happened.

How exactly do you suggest teams be formed then? If a child with 10 years of experience who just can't seem to get past working level 2/3 tumbling isn't meant for a level 2 team, then where should they go? If I had all level 5 tumbling 6 years ago, and now couldn't throw it for the life of me and can't get past a BHS, should my program be forced to place me on level 5 because in my 20s I could tumble and in my 30s I'm a potato?

lmao @ I'm a potato....my cp actually says that. She says "I feel so old"

 

[luv2cheer92]

Level 1 & 2 are for athletes whose skill level are 1 & 2 for that year, regardless of the numbers of years they have cheered or what skills they previously had.



The scoresheet isn't about one athlete, its about the team. One athlete does not make a team. No one is arguing that.



The score sheet is not all about tumbling, you're right, but I'd say 90% of your "skill level" is based on your tumbling. Stunting is easy to learn in the grand scheme of cheer. You could pull anyone off the street in May (tryouts) and by November/December (start of the comp season) they could be doing level 5 stunts. Tumbling not so much.



Kids bodies change drastically between the ages of 5 and 18 which can affect skills. A kid's dedication level over the years change which can affect skills. A family's financial situation can change over the years which can affect skills. For you to refer to kids who have lost skills over the years for a multitude of reasons as "put out to pasture" is whack. Eww.



Beginner athletes do have a place to go.... It's mostly level 1 & 2. I've never personally seen anyone get turned away because they were not experienced enough for level 1 or 2 and were out edged by an experienced athlete. Maybe it happens to a handful of people A YEAR at like Rays or Cheer Athletics or any other Mega gym. No gym owener wants to turn anyone away but in RARE OCCASIONS sometimes you have to if you truly don't have a place for them.

Kids being turned away because theres no spot for them on a team (at tryouts) happens like 0.3% of the time in cheer. Nine times out of ten there is another gym in the area that will have a place for a beginner athlete if the gym truly has no place for the athlete. And if there's no place they can go to cheer, the athlete can take classes to improve their skills so they can have a better chance at making a team next year. God forbid you might have to be competitive to make a team in a competitive sport. :rolleyes:



So you want to accommodate beginner 15 year olds but for 15 year olds who block on their skills and need to drop to a lower level team where their new skill level is better suited but the gym doesn't have a team to accomodate them then f*ck it???? Lolololololololol.



FTFY.



Nice fallacy.



That happens everywhere in everything. Welcome to real life.

I. Love. You.
All the shimmys for this post.

 

[FamUsM0m]

I. Love. You.
All the shimmys for this post.

I wish I could shimmy it a million times.

 

[311cheermom]

This is clearly not a case of sandbagging, if the athlete currently has level 2–3 skills. If she currently had level 5 skills, it would be a different issue.

Just because a kid was once level 5 does not make it sandbagging. Are we to suggest that leveling down would never be appropriate, even if the skills fit? Doesn't that seem a little arbitrary?

Exactly what I wanted to say. Attacking this mom is a little ridiculous if you ask me. It doesn't matter whether her CP is a beginner or a 13 year veteran, if she no longer has her upper level skills the placement is fair and totally appropriate.

 

[XtremeWpg]

Exactly what I wanted to say. Attacking this mom is a little ridiculous if you ask me. It doesn't matter whether her CP is a beginner or a 13 year veteran, if she no longer has her upper level skills the placement is fair and totally appropriate.

Yes!!

And...maybe unpopular, but even if the kid had a standing double, if the coach/gym sees fit to put them on the team, we may not *like* that it happens, but its not technically inappropriate or wrong. Just shady IMO

 

[FamUsM0m]

Yes!!

And...maybe unpopular, but even if the kid had a standing double, if the coach/gym sees fit to put them on the team, we may not *like* that it happens, but its not technically inappropriate or wrong. Just shady IMO

and I would 100% agree with you if she had her full even! much less a standing double. If it was an entire team of kids who had a standing tuck and the coach was like "we could kill it in senior 2 division" yeah....that would be a no for me.

 

[tealandgold]

Level R5 to level 2 isn't leveling down, 13 years experience up to R5 is not level 1 or 2. If the score sheet decides one blocking athlete is enough to make that much of a difference to a high level team, then that same athlete is making the same impact on a lower level in reverse. The score sheet is not all about tumbling, and again, 4.2 was designed specifically with these athletes in mind. Level 1 and 2 should not become the place for "put out to pasture" multi year high level athletes. Beginner athletes need a place to go, and gym owners should want them to have a place to go without having to go head to head with multi year high level athletes. If a coach needs a place for a higher level blocking athlete(s) then they should make a 4.2 team, if they don't have enough athletes for a 4.2 then that's unfortunate. One athlete does make a difference or gyms wouldn't be removing them from teams when they no longer have a skill. I'm having a hard time believing I have to convince anyone that every athlete matters and makes an impact on a team.

I think a lot of gyms are realizing that they need a place for true beginners and are now offering Prep Teams for those athletes! After a year of being on a Prep Team and learning the basics, then they are placed on a full year team the following year. I think it makes it a lot easier transition for those beginners, but I know not all gyms are big enough to offer these teams in addition to the full year competitive teams.

 

[chardaeeeee]

You are entitled to your opinion, and I will stand by it is unfortunate that beginner athletes have to compete with multi year and level athletes for a spot on level 1 and 2.

@FamUsM0m there are athletes every year that are told, "I'm sorry we don't have a team at this gym for you." I'm going into year seven, I don't consider that new, but if you do, so be it. I had two older athletes that began on level 1 with absolutely no skills, I have a lot of respect for Sr. lower levels and their athletes. While you may feel your 13 year, cheered every level up to R5 athlete is now only level 2 worthy, I don't, I give blocking high level athletes more credit than that.

Level 5 certainly has not evolved in six years what level 1 and 2 have, there is no comparison.

@FamousMatty whether or not 4.2 was created for blocking high level and multi year athletes, it is now what it is used for (along with your HS example) and the most appropriate place for them.

And, done. This is in Varsity and USASF's hands, but for the integrity of the "sport" and the need to keep beginning levels available to beginners I hope they make a change.

Not sure if you are new to this sport or not, however, most large gyms, such as the gym in question, do not turn away athletes. That is completely normal. I have had experience at "mega" gyms, including the gym in question, and they accept every athlete because they have enough teams to appropriately place them.

 

[catlady]

@Eyes On The Prize

You said, "The score sheet is not all about tumbling, you're right, but I'd say 90% of your "skill level" is based on your tumbling."

That is my point! A blocking athlete that cheered every level up to level R5 does not lose their muscle ability when they mentally block. If this were a sport totally scored on tumbling, then I have no problem with this. However, cheer also scores technique, performance, level of jumps, level of stunt difficulty, so "yes" I feel long term, high level athletes provide an unfair advantage in comparison to beginner and lower level athletes. Level 4.2 provides an appropriate level for those situations and could close that loophole for any level 3, 4, or 5 athlete that's blocking or becomes stagnant with their tumbling.

The rules are in your favor. Coaches can pull as many blocking athletes at the beginning of the season and retired high level athletes throughout the season to put on lower levels. I don't know if this is a huge issue, or not. But, I do believe every athlete and level deserves a level playing field.

***My first post was, "She cheered 13 years, every level up to R5 and was on level 2? At what point is this considered wrong?" *** We can all provide legitimate situations and examples, but it does nothing to close the loophole.

 

[FamUsM0m]

@Eyes On The Prize

You said, "The score sheet is not all about tumbling, you're right, but I'd say 90% of your "skill level" is based on your tumbling."

That is my point! A blocking athlete that cheered every level up to level R5 does not lose their muscle ability when they mentally block. If this were a sport totally scored on tumbling, then I have no problem with this. However, cheer also scores technique, performance, level of jumps, level of stunt difficulty, so "yes" I feel long term, high level athletes provide an unfair advantage in comparison to beginner and lower level athletes. Level 4.2 provides an appropriate level for those situations and could close that loophole for any level 3, 4, or 5 athlete that's blocking or becomes stagnant with their tumbling.

The rules are in your favor. Coaches can pull as many blocking athletes at the beginning of the season and retired high level athletes throughout the season to put on lower levels. I don't know if this is a huge issue, or not. But, I do believe every athlete and level deserves a level playing field.

***My first post was, "She cheered 13 years, every level up to R5 and was on level 2? At what point is this considered wrong?" *** We can all provide legitimate situations and examples, but it does nothing to close the loophole.

We're aware of you initial post. But you still haven't answered any of the questions posed to you. What if the gym is small and doesn't have enough athlete's to field a 4.2? What if they only have 1 senior level 2 team? Should my athlete (a higher level blocking, multi-year high level put out to pasture athlete) be told she can no longer cheer because they need to make room for Little Suzie when there is another age and level appropriate team for little suzie but my cp has aged out of that division? (i.e. there is a junior 2 team, little suzie is 13 and just got her bhs, my cp is 17) Where should they put the "HLB, MYHL, POTP" athlete in this case? Should they put her on the level they know she can't perform at? Possibly causing no only more harm to the athlete who is blocking but holding back the rest of the team? Mind you, there are probably .1% of athletes in any given gym that are going through or have gone through what my cp has. You make it seem as though it's half the gym/team?