All-Star 2019-2020 Teams

[Eyes On The Prize]

Makes me sad about A Team changing divisions. Medium teams are dropping every year.

It's interesting that medium was created to bridge the gap between small and large because the same thing was happening to LAG. Worlds 2012 had 5 teams in the LAG division.

As much as I love love love the large teams, I'd rather see them shift all the names down to the size below and get rid of XS - Large to 30 athletes, Medium to 20ish, and then Small to around 20 or less - just to create more competition at the higher levels.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Also I noticed that as teams move in and out, other teams make decisions on whether to enter or move in and out (likely based on who is still in or out.)

Ex: You can bet that if (example) Orange and Panthers went Medium, other people would decide to go LAG.

All about working smart I suppose - but there are other consequences to that (ex: as people left Small All Girl for XS, XS is now HUGE. So if you left Small All Girl trying to have better shot at globing, now have the same issue.)

 

[4D3CHEER!]

Really? That's disappointing. They've done incredibly well the past, what, 3 years since they've been a team?

Yes, it is. 1 gold medal and 2 silver medals are definitely impressive. I will miss their rivalry with Reckless for sure.

 

[wishfulthinking]

It's crazy to think about A Team dropping 2 sizes! They basically have half the team that they did last year!

 

[BlueCat]

It's interesting that medium was created to bridge the gap between small and large because the same thing was happening to LAG. Worlds 2012 had 5 teams in the LAG division.

As much as I love love love the large teams, I'd rather see them shift all the names down to the size below and get rid of XS - Large to 30 athletes, Medium to 20ish, and then Small to around 20 or less - just to create more competition at the higher levels.

I would far rather see the scoring be set up in a way that doesn't create incentives to be smaller.

 

[quitthedrama]

Also I noticed that as teams move in and out, other teams make decisions on whether to enter or move in and out (likely based on who is still in or out.)

Ex: You can bet that if (example) Orange and Panthers went Medium, other people would decide to go LAG.

All about working smart I suppose - but there are other consequences to that (ex: as people left Small All Girl for XS, XS is now HUGE. So if you left Small All Girl trying to have better shot at globing, now have the same issue.)

I'm not sure strategy has a lot to do with it. I think it's pretty hard to make a switch to medium or large these days. Gyms just don't have the same number of worlds level athletes as they used to. Between the minimum age increase and new athletes joining at a much slower pace than athletes leaving over the past several years, it's a struggle to field a senior team of more than 24. Gyms are forced to go XS or small or keep their aged out senior kids and go open. I personally don't care for the look on the mat of teams with less than 5 stunt groups, but it is becoming the norm. I'm not sure you will have more than 10 teams in any of the medium or large divisions this year and that's a shame.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

I'm not sure strategy has a lot to do with it. I think it's pretty hard to make a switch to medium or large these days. Gyms just don't have the same number of worlds level athletes as they used to. Between the minimum age increase and new athletes joining at a much slower pace than athletes leaving over the past several years, it's a struggle to field a senior team of more than 24. Gyms are forced to go XS or small or keep their aged out senior kids and go open. I personally don't care for the look on the mat of teams with less than 5 stunt groups, but it is becoming the norm. I'm not sure you will have more than 10 teams in any of the medium or large divisions this year and that's a shame.

I feel like I've been seeing parents on the boards since I've been here saying that cheer is pricing people out.

I agree on the look. I will say that it is interesting in the sense that XS hides NOTHING. Horrible flyer tech, dismal tumbling, you see it all.

 

[Eyes On The Prize]

Also I noticed that as teams move in and out, other teams make decisions on whether to enter or move in and out (likely based on who is still in or out.)

Ex: You can bet that if (example) Orange and Panthers went Medium, other people would decide to go LAG.

All about working smart I suppose - but there are other consequences to that (ex: as people left Small All Girl for XS, XS is now HUGE. So if you left Small All Girl trying to have better shot at globing, now have the same issue.)

I disagree that people watch other teams for where to go for less competition to globe. You go where you're the most competitive. The only time I've seen gyms do that are at the local level, who only compete locally, and who don't have strong teams.

Large Senior, in particular, has always been a tough division to field. It's history has been rocky. They went 6 years without 10 teams. Only WCSS and SE have entered LAG every year since 2007.

• Panthers, who were consistently in LAG, left LAG in 2010 and returned in 2013, dropping to Small and Medium in between.
• Stingrays had a LAG team, I think Peach, for 2007 and 2008 as well as Orange in SS. Disbanded Peach keeping Orange in 2009. Brought back Peach in Medium in 2013 (?) while keeping Orange in Small, and then Orange switched to LAG in 2014.
• F5 dropped to Medium in 2014 but have struggled on and off at Worlds in LAG.
• Pittsburgh Supermodels were in LAG 2008-2010, left and then returned in 2016. But I think one of those years they pulled athletes from a bunch of gyms to field their LAG team.
  
• Woodlands Elite Generals, FCA Diamonds, FAME Super Seniors, Maryland Marlins (RIP), POWER (which I think eventually got bought out by Cali and is now Cali AZ?), and Ultimate Athletics all used to compete in LAG on and off as well but all left and most haven't returned/dropped to Medium or Small.

Cheer IS pricing people out. There's a reason you see the same teams in the large divisions every year. They are mega gyms and they have the privilege of attracting talent from outside areas. Or it's in a saturated area. Very few gyms outside of those places can make competitive large teams. Now that the same trend is happening in the medium division, the same division that was created to address the problem of "gyms can't field big teams", why not just combine the two divisions?

I would far rather see the scoring be set up in a way that doesn't create incentives to be smaller.

I don't disagree with you, I think scoring is an issue in itself and I think that's a different but related and important conversation that should happen. I don't like the way teams are able to "cheat" the system by putting less people on the mat to put up less stunts because "ratios". (Why do we even have so many divisions if we're using ratios?)

I don't like that USASF removed the XSmall limitation it had on gyms when they first made it. If the intention was to add XS to accommodate smaller gyms, why are they letting big gyms into the division? I don't think it's necessary for SOT to be in XS when they have 2 other L6 teams. More divisions limit competition and if Large/Medium is struggling because gyms can't field bigger teams, why are they adding another division to let gyms enter? Why not just lower the number of athletes on the floor overall?

 

[BlueCat]

I'm not sure strategy has a lot to do with it. I think it's pretty hard to make a switch to medium or large these days. Gyms just don't have the same number of worlds level athletes as they used to. Between the minimum age increase and new athletes joining at a much slower pace than athletes leaving over the past several years, it's a struggle to field a senior team of more than 24. Gyms are forced to go XS or small or keep their aged out senior kids and go open. I personally don't care for the look on the mat of teams with less than 5 stunt groups, but it is becoming the norm. I'm not sure you will have more than 10 teams in any of the medium or large divisions this year and that's a shame.

I would agree, except event producers say they have roughly the same number of athletes at events, just on far more total teams. (the same size pizza, just cut into more pieces). This effectively increases the cost per athlete for events AND gyms, which isn't helping our cost issue.

To me, it is more about the fact that your athletes #23-30 (or #31-38) have to be really strong to be competitive. That is what is so challenging about fielding teams in those divisions. The purely ratio scoring means that if you have 20 really strong athletes, 10 medium strong, and 8 kids with most, but not all, of the skills, you have a hard time getting high scores as large. Going medium (with a small L5 team) gets you higher scores. Going XS (with a Medium Restricted/L5) team with those same athletes gets you the best chance for a bid.

Basing your score on the "average" ability of your athletes, rather than some cumulative score for difficulty puts a downward pressure on team sizes. This is also true if deductions stay absolute while rewards are relative. Those aren't the only factors affecting team size by any means, but they are there and they are persistent.

Also, for better or worse, what qualifies as a "worlds athlete" has gotten much higher over the years. In general, the skills are much harder than they used to be and kids that would have made an elite worlds team EASILY 10 years ago are not making the floor now.

Aside:
I don't think I have explained my issue with absolute deductions when using relative scoring very well in the past. To me, a better way to look at it is this: If you have two different-sized teams, and both have 90% doing the elite skills for their level, should they get the same difficulty score for that section? If those same two teams both bust 10% of their standing backs, then they should get the same points taken off in deductions. (Traditionally, the larger team has gotten far more points deducted despite hitting the same (or higher) percentage of skills as the smaller team.)

 

[Knowcheering]

Cheer IS pricing people out. There's a reason you see the same teams in the large divisions every year. They are mega gyms and they have the privilege of attracting talent from outside areas. Or it's in a saturated area. Very few gyms outside of those places can make competitive large teams. Now that the same trend is happening in the medium division, the same division that was created to address the problem of "gyms can't field big teams", why not just combine the two divisions?

Cheer used to be more affordable when local 1-day competitions were still important. Now, many Level 5 (errr 6) teams have to get on a plane or drive a long distance to find quality competition to compete against. The way the mega gyms swallow up many of the local area gyms contributes to this phenomenon where there is very little competition in competitive cheer... unless you get on a plane or attend a 2-day event with an overnight stay. It's been this way for Large Senior for a very long time, but now even in the smaller divisions (and even in the lower levels), more long-distance travel is necessary to find competition. In most team sports, you don't see this. A travel baseball team or a travel soccer team can drive a half hour and find a quality opponent.

I don't disagree with you, I think scoring is an issue in itself and I think that's a different but related and important conversation that should happen. I don't like the way teams are able to "cheat" the system by putting less people on the mat to put up less stunts because "ratios". (Why do we even have so many divisions if we're using ratios?)

Yeah I never liked the ratio thing. It encourages a lack of participation. And why were 1 stunt group teams getting the same stunt score as 3 groups? That encourages nuggeting and hiding behind stunts. There were teams this season that literally had the majority of their team standing around watching one stunt go up.

I don't think it's necessary for SOT to be in XS when they have 2 other L6 teams.

You could look at it from the opposite angle that if a gym already has 2 Level 6 teams, what are the odds that they're going to have enough athletes every year for ANOTHER medium sized team? Mega gyms may be able to field a third Level 6 medium team easily, but regular sized gyms may have more trouble. It's no secret participation in this sport is going down more than up. They may only have enough "leftovers" (for lack of a better term) for X-Small.

The quality of the XS division was much better this season as opposed to the first season when it mostly looked like a Restricted 5 division for small gyms. For a Worlds division to be taken seriously, there can't be restrictions. And even still, it's not like we saw big gyms hiding in this division this year, just teams from their satellite locations that have a reasonable number of athletes.

 

[bdsbc]

I'm not sure strategy has a lot to do with it. I think it's pretty hard to make a switch to medium or large these days. Gyms just don't have the same number of worlds level athletes as they used to. Between the minimum age increase and new athletes joining at a much slower pace than athletes leaving over the past several years, it's a struggle to field a senior team of more than 24. Gyms are forced to go XS or small or keep their aged out senior kids and go open. I personally don't care for the look on the mat of teams with less than 5 stunt groups, but it is becoming the norm. I'm not sure you will have more than 10 teams in any of the medium or large divisions this year and that's a shame.

Maybe if we had videos being allowed to be posted online without them being removed more athletes would be able to see exactly what cheerleading is and would join the sport. I know a ton of people who found out all star cheer through YouTube but the likeliness of that happening now is much lower due to flocheer/varsity tv copyright rules. Not sure if Im the only one that feels this way.

 

[UCFKnights07]

I disagree that people watch other teams for where to go for less competition to globe. You go where you're the most competitive. The only time I've seen gyms do that are at the local level, who only compete locally, and who don't have strong teams.

Large Senior, in particular, has always been a tough division to field. It's history has been rocky. They went 6 years without 10 teams. Only WCSS and SE have entered LAG every year since 2007.

• Panthers, who were consistently in LAG, left LAG in 2010 and returned in 2013, dropping to Small and Medium in between.
• Stingrays had a LAG team, I think Peach, for 2007 and 2008 as well as Orange in SS. Disbanded Peach keeping Orange in 2009. Brought back Peach in Medium in 2013 (?) while keeping Orange in Small, and then Orange switched to LAG in 2014.
• F5 dropped to Medium in 2014 but have struggled on and off at Worlds in LAG.
• Pittsburgh Supermodels were in LAG 2008-2010, left and then returned in 2016. But I think one of those years they pulled athletes from a bunch of gyms to field their LAG team.
  
• Woodlands Elite Generals, FCA Diamonds, FAME Super Seniors, Maryland Marlins (RIP), POWER (which I think eventually got bought out by Cali and is now Cali AZ?), and Ultimate Athletics all used to compete in LAG on and off as well but all left and most haven't returned/dropped to Medium or Small.

panthers dropping from large to small in one year, i think proves that most teams dropping a size isnt intentional or a strategy move. It happened back then, and it happens now and probably will happen more frequently due to the rising costs of the sport.
Even though yes more smaller gyms have entered the picture of attending these major comps, how long will it last? will these smaller gyms be able to afford to send athletes to nca, worlds, possibly majors, etc. The exposure probably has been amazing for those smaller programs, but with anything, the more people show interest, the more the prices tend to rise.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Along the lines of the "priced out" debate: Can kids/parents even still afford to stay in the sport long enough to even become skilled enough for a Worlds team?

Unless you're the kid who gets skills in open gym with very little direct coaching, it takes years of time and privates to get to this point.

Ex: If you have an elite kiddo who has had to really work in privates, it costs a lot just to get each skill. Ex: Folks on here joke about how much their kid's BHS/tuck/full cost them.

For the kids who have to work extra hard and need a lot of coaching/classes/etc. to even get to this level is likely taxing financially, yes?

 

[Lisa Seye]

Along the lines of the "priced out" debate: Can kids/parents even still afford to stay in the sport long enough to even become skilled enough for a Worlds team?

Unless you're the kid who gets skills in open gym with very little direct coaching, it takes years of time and privates to get to this point.

Ex: If you have an elite kiddo who has had to really work in privates, it costs a lot just to get each skill. Ex: Folks on here joke about how much their kid's BHS/tuck/full cost them.

For the kids who have to work extra hard and need a lot of coaching/classes/etc. to even get to this level is likely taxing financially, yes?

It was supremely hard to find tumble coaches close to us. At one gym, they never could keep tumble coaches so kids couldn't progress unless they went somewhere else to tumble. 3 years my kid had sporadic tumbling classes. She worked on doubles and standing fulls at other locations but never got them completely. Traveling out of no mans cheer land for cheer was expensive enough, let alone traveling somewhere else to tumble. It has always been the thing that held up my kid. She had a full and some combo stuff but never that double or standing full. Her teams at one gym tumbled 30 minutes a week for a quarter of the season and the coach left. After that they had a coach but not certified to level 5, although tumbling classes were supposed to be included in tuition. After that, they couldn't keep a coach. Who wants to pay one gym and never have an instructor and then pay another place to teach her what the first gym did not? This has gone on for 3 years and same again this past year, although we aren't cheering at that location anymore.
At one point, we found a local gym who had a level 5 instructor but he was also an owner and choreographer who was often traveling and his other instructors would take over but again not level 5.

We traveled 1 hour 45 minutes to cheer and 1 hour and 15 for tumbling at a gymnastics gym for one season but as I said that is expensive. My kid finally accepted she would never get those skills. The kids at the gym who had those skills, already had them from a prior coach who left after we joined.

My kid was ecstatic for the new nontumble division because she didnt have a prayer of gaining elite worlds tumbling unless we moved to another state. We traveled 3 hours one way for that nontumble team and definitely could not afford to go more often for tumbling classes. However there were plenty to choose from for those who lived near by.
As I said, we live in no mans cheer land so just getting to practice and back was a struggle.
So yep, cheer continues to get more expensive, travel to become an elite athlete is definitely expensive, and I can't figure out how much money some folks have to afford tuition, comp fees, tumbling classes, AND room and board to send their kids all around the country to cheer at mega gyms. A little jealous of all the folks who live close to elite worlds level gyms. If we had lived near one, perhaps my kid would finally have elite skills in tumbling.

 

[cheermomforever]

Along the lines of the "priced out" debate: Can kids/parents even still afford to stay in the sport long enough to even become skilled enough for a Worlds team?

Unless you're the kid who gets skills in open gym with very little direct coaching, it takes years of time and privates to get to this point.

Ex: If you have an elite kiddo who has had to really work in privates, it costs a lot just to get each skill. Ex: Folks on here joke about how much their kid's BHS/tuck/full cost them.

For the kids who have to work extra hard and need a lot of coaching/classes/etc. to even get to this level is likely taxing financially, yes?

but the big gyms still keep going the STP comps amd bringing many many teams where the EP is getting free rooms at the expense of us paying crazy $$ for hotels and $$ to c our children compete for 2 1/2 minutes!!! Veto one STP comp and see what happens......