All-Star All-star Routines Becoming Too Compulsory?

[WinstonsGirl]

I can agree with this. I had a conversation with some teammates about Worlds last night. One was super pumped to watch the level 5 teams. Me and the other girl couldn't care less. Our thoughts are that all the good level 5 teams are going to do the same basic thing - doubles, high to high, full - double full ups, etc.

We are both more excited for level 6, where I think you can still get that creativity. More variation in rotational tosses, the different level 6 mounts and dismounts, etc. A lot of the level 6 teams are not full level 6 and they need to use their creativity to increase their score. To me, those routines are more exciting

 

[chyeeaaa69]

I'm having trouble figuring out his core argument. Worlds has had the same basic no-rubric scoresheet for a long time. World Cup could still do a "Fashionista" caliber dance and Top Gun could still do some crazy new everyone-thought-was-illegal-but-somehow-isn't skill and they would both get heavily rewarded for it. Is he saying that there isn't time in a routine to do those things? They would take the same amount of time that a current dance or pyramid would.

Also, last time I checked, the same people were choreographing those routines that were ten years ago. Those two programs are still as competitive as ever.

The Fashionista dance was 10-12 seconds longer than Top Gun's dance this year, but I know that's not the point of your argument. The need for, essentially, 3 stunt sequences in many divisions has replaced the creativity and time available for choreography and pyramids and dance from what I've noticed, as tumbling sequences haven't changed all that much, and I think that's where his point is.

 

[ShutItDown]

so true, i will say though that it makes it that more exciting when teams do come up with something to seperate themselves and makes them that much more special, cali does an amazing job of that with all their teams. But then I feel like scoring would be way too subjective once again. If we want it to be a sport then sadly we have to eliminate moments like that in a way meaning counting skills sounds like more of a cut and dry way to score something than moments. Like gymnastics.

 

[King]

While good choreography can pull a routine together I don't think the routine that hired the best choreographer should win.


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[FamousxMindset]

Glad to finally know what compulsory means. I do like the idea of a compulsory day 1 and day 2 performance orientated.


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[yojaehs]

Everyone has been on the same score sheet at every competition I've ever been to (15 yrs an counting) I've never seen the same routine. It's those that go above and beyond that excel regardless of level. As a coach I appreciate knowing what needs to be done. The creativity comes in showing strengths and hiding negatives. Call it coaching call it choreography call it whatever you want. More times than not the cream rises to the top (on any score sheet) and the rocks fall to the bottom.


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[WCMAN]

The problem scoring it on the performance factor is its subjective to the judges taste. A judge can give it a 2 and the judge next to him can give it a 10 based on their taste.Makes it tough.

 

[tricial4]

I think this is why coaches are having to go back and review score sheets more to see what was missed or scored incorrectly. The routines are so jam packed full that its next to impossible to catch everything. Therefor, it seems the judges can miss more and sometimes miss deductions


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[PEPantherFan]

While good choreography can pull a routine together I don't think the routine that hired the best choreographer should win.


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Agreed. I don't want to get to a point where the dollars you put in for choreo trickles down and essentially becomes buying the first place trophy.

I don't think the cause and effect are in line here. Compulsory-ness is not the thief of creativity. I think it's completely possible to have both. Grids are moving in and people are evicting artistry to make room for it.

Also, although the moments that we're talking about do bring with them a wave of nostalgia, how would a 'Moments' section look on a score sheet? We're talking about a sport, about athletes that work hard. A routine well hit, that's clean, with big zeros in the deductions column is moment enough for me.


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[Ally13]

"Well you gym owners out there may want to go visit your friends that have gymnastics gyms and see how the compulsory system killed their sport. No really. Ask them.
You will find that gymnastics did the same thing, and the numbers are down 30% over the last 3 years."

This part kind of stuck out to me for some reason. I don't really see how the compulsory system killed gymnastics? Especially as it's an incredibly popular sport. And I think for gymnastics the compulsory system made sure everyone has/had the required skills for each level and really emphasized the form, execution, and technique. Which I don't consider to be a bad thing. I don't really know, but that part just confused me a little.

 

[gofriars610]

not to be a thread killer, but where can i find videos of the things he mentioned?

 

[mom24girls]

I agree! I have a cp on a youth 3 squad. She has only 2 8 counts where she isn't stunting, tumbling, or jumping. I feel like she's a workhorse and I really miss the entertainer in her. Don't get me wrong she rocks her 2 8 counts but I would love more of the fluff.

 

[King]

With all the skills requirements the thing is it allows allstar gyms to exist. Competition alone doesn't make enough money for a gym to continue on. It is the lessons it takes to teach all those skills that allow gyms to make money and have big staffs. That is an important part of cheerleading and what allows it to grow.

Think of it this way: Every double you see is worth $10,000. That parent probably spent somewhere around that amount over how many years to get them that skill. See a team with 30 doubles? $300,000 or teaching money over time. That is enough to hire good instructors, furnish a gym, get good safety instruction.

It is quite short sighted (and honestly is just waxing nostalgic when cute ideas won over skills and choreography) to think back in a boom time of growth and say that is how cheer should be. We were inventing things left and right because they didn't exist. The reason things are not being invented as much anymore there is a finite amount of skills that can possibly exist. We couldn't carry on like that forever.

And if people want to go back to just performing there is always competitive dance.

 

[Ashley]

The problem scoring it on the performance factor is its subjective to the judges taste. A judge can give it a 2 and the judge next to him can give it a 10 based on their taste.Makes it tough.

This was my attitude. This might work at worlds with the caliber judges they hire, but at smaller competitions, even some worlds bid events, the scores might be all over the place.

We've been trying to take the subjectivity out of it - trying to argue that they best team wins, not the judges favorite teams.

There has to be a way to reward both.

 

[yesucan]

I realize 2:30 is a long time to go 150% for any athlete... But it seems popular opinion is that there isn't enough time to be creative or have more than 2 8 counts of dance. Why not make routine length 2:40 and give coaches a little more time to work with? Eps could possibly tell teams 25 seconds to set, 25 seconds to exit mat after performance (which would also put a time limit on "pre performance fluff" and "post performance celebration") and it maybe wouldn't affect competition length.