All-Star All-star Routines Becoming Too Compulsory?

[King]

This was my attitude. This might work at worlds with the caliber judges they hire, but at smaller competitions, even some worlds bid events, the scores might be all over the place.

We've been trying to take the subjectivity out of it - trying to argue that they best team wins, not the judges favorite teams.

There has to be a way to reward both.

There is. Don't have judges that have to do both, subjectivity and objectivity. Difficulty judges handle the objective part. Execution and performance judges do the subjectivity. The fact that people think a human can multitask well enough to do both AS ACCURATE as when you separate them out blows my mind.

 

[coach12]

Good points brought up here. There are just so many elements needed in a routine that its getting harder to have some great choreography included. I do miss that.


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[BlueCat]

With all the skills requirements the thing is it allows allstar gyms to exist. Competition alone doesn't make enough money for a gym to continue on. It is the lessons it takes to teach all those skills that allow gyms to make money and have big staffs. That is an important part of cheerleading and what allows it to grow.

Think of it this way: Every double you see is worth $10,000. That parent probably spent somewhere around that amount over how many years to get them that skill. See a team with 30 doubles? $300,000 or teaching money over time. That is enough to hire good instructors, furnish a gym, get good safety instruction.

It is quite short sighted (and honestly is just waxing nostalgic when cute ideas won over skills and choreography) to think back in a boom time of growth and say that is how cheer should be. We were inventing things left and right because they didn't exist. The reason things are not being invented as much anymore there is a finite amount of skills that can possibly exist. We couldn't carry on like that forever.

And if people want to go back to just performing there is always competitive dance.

We need a "mega shimmy" button that you can only use once a week. I would have used it on this one.

I would also like to point out that all star cheer has DRAMATICALLY more fans now than it did 8-10 years ago. Somebody must like something about today's routines.

 

[King]

We need a "mega shimmy" button that you can only use once a week. I would have used it on this one.

I would also like to point out that all star cheer has DRAMATICALLY more fans now than it did 8-10 years ago. Somebody must like something about today's routines.

Haha, that is actually something I am working on called 'Glitter'. I think it will work well.

And I have always thought creativity comes from a box. Set constraints and people will find more creative ways to explore those constraints. I look at this years routines and I am NOT bored. And they are hard and people are struggling to hit them, but that is a good thing. It means people have to weigh risk more vs reward and make winning that much harder. I do think cheer has a lot more to mature as a sport, but I don't look at where we are now and think it is boring.

And recently getting into the college game where it is more like cheer 5 years ago let me say... you DON'T want to go back.

 

[yojaehs]

I realize 2:30 is a long time to go 150% for any athlete... But it seems popular opinion is that there isn't enough time to be creative or have more than 2 8 counts of dance. Why not make routine length 2:40 and give coaches a little more time to work with? Eps could possibly tell teams 25 seconds to set, 25 seconds to exit mat after performance (which would also put a time limit on "pre performance fluff" and "post performance celebration") and it maybe wouldn't affect competition length.

This has been brought up many times at many meeting and gets shot down every time, here is why.

If you extend time limit to say 2:40 for choreography that's all fine and good until SOME gym uses that extra 10 seconds for skills. In order not to lose now every gym has just added 10 more seconds of skill.

Also EP's whine about it being a scheduling issue which I reply for each kid spending $75+ figure it out.

My personal opinion is routines should times based on level-
Levels 1&2 2:10
Levels 3&4 2:20
Level 5 Res 2:30
Worlds 5&6 2:40




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[RockstarCheer]

With all the skills requirements the thing is it allows allstar gyms to exist. Competition alone doesn't make enough money for a gym to continue on. It is the lessons it takes to teach all those skills that allow gyms to make money and have big staffs. That is an important part of cheerleading and what allows it to grow.

Think of it this way: Every double you see is worth $10,000. That parent probably spent somewhere around that amount over how many years to get them that skill. See a team with 30 doubles? $300,000 or teaching money over time. That is enough to hire good instructors, furnish a gym, get good safety instruction.

It is quite short sighted (and honestly is just waxing nostalgic when cute ideas won over skills and choreography) to think back in a boom time of growth and say that is how cheer should be. We were inventing things left and right because they didn't exist. The reason things are not being invented as much anymore there is a finite amount of skills that can possibly exist. We couldn't carry on like that forever.

And if people want to go back to just performing there is always competitive dance.

SHIMMY TIMES 1000! Amen and I couldn't agree more!

 

[Gabrielle Schilling]

As someone who was inlvoled with high school cheer for years before being turned on to all stars, I was used to super tight, super clean routines even if they didn't have a lot of skills. They were still great to watch because I used the skills my kids had and was creative with the routine. It didn't matter that they couldn't do a certain tumbling pass or a specific stunt because they had fun and so did the crowd.

Back to the present, I am stressing over rubrics and what my team "has to have" to max out. As I watch their current routine, I feel that I am trying to shove so much into a rountine that it easily turns sloppy. I don't even think my girls like doing it anymore.

The other coach and I are trying to figure out how to add another creative dismount or load for a stunt but there is no time to put it in. So were can't max out.

Also, as I watch a competion the other day I realized that a lot of these routines look the same. Since the teams in our division were all the same level, we needed all of the same things. I knew what was going to happen in each routine. It had to happen. If the team wanted to max out on the scoresheets.

 

[5-6-7-8]

There is. Don't have judges that have to do both, subjectivity and objectivity. Difficulty judges handle the objective part. Execution and performance judges do the subjectivity. The fact that people think a human can multitask well enough to do both AS ACCURATE as when you separate them out blows my mind.

I was hoping you bring this up. The idea of. Having difficulty and execution judges being separate seems to address many current issues, this one included.

I truly believe that your idea of having difficulty scored by judges using video review will in a way help bring back creativity. If a judge can focus on the counting / analyzing with the assistance of a pause button and rewind, it definitely frees up the "subjective" judge(s), allowing them to sit back and enjoy the routine.


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[cupieqt]

I think we need that mega shimmy button King

 

[King]

I was hoping you bring this up. The idea of. Having difficulty and execution judges being separate seems to address many current issues, this one included.

I truly believe that your idea of having difficulty scored by judges using video review will in a way help bring back creativity. If a judge can focus on the counting / analyzing with the assistance of a pause button and rewind, it definitely frees up the "subjective" judge(s), allowing them to sit back and enjoy the routine.


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I 100% agree it will bring back creativity.

First, cheerleading is a sport. It is athletic, takes skill, and there are winners and losers (and unfortunately ties... sigh...).

Second, cheerleading is a business (and that is NOT a bad thing). Because the business model of cheerleading is actually QUITE lucrative, it has allowed cheerleading to grow. If you are good at cheer you can make a living and therefor stay in cheerleading.

I do think certain changes to what we do will actually help the sport AND business side of things. If all our routines were about creativity there would be mega rich choreographers and poor skills developers. If our routines were all about skills then the gyms would be rich and choreographers would be poor. If music is sued by the RIAA and we have to compete to Randy Dickey's counting then the music mixers will go away. But because cheer is a rich deep sport that involves many facets all of those can grow and be healthy and all celebrated. I think by separating skills judging from execution / creativity judging we create a deeper chess game where different gyms can focus on different things and be successful.

As well this will also increase safety. First off the more money in cheer for the gyms means the more skilled professionals they can hire. On the scoresheet if execution is judged stronger and falls and incompletes are harsher this will also increase safety. Cheerleading will never be 100% safe, but there is a level of acceptable risk we can get to and all sports have.

 

[King]

As someone who was inlvoled with high school cheer for years before being turned on to all stars, I was used to super tight, super clean routines even if they didn't have a lot of skills. They were still great to watch because I used the skills my kids had and was creative with the routine. It didn't matter that they couldn't do a certain tumbling pass or a specific stunt because they had fun and so did the crowd.

Back to the present, I am stressing over rubrics and what my team "has to have" to max out. As I watch their current routine, I feel that I am trying to shove so much into a rountine that it easily turns sloppy. I don't even think my girls like doing it anymore.

The other coach and I are trying to figure out how to add another creative dismount or load for a stunt but there is no time to put it in. So were can't max out.

Also, as I watch a competion the other day I realized that a lot of these routines look the same. Since the teams in our division were all the same level, we needed all of the same things. I knew what was going to happen in each routine. It had to happen. If the team wanted to max out on the scoresheets.

That is the thing coaches have yet to grasp: the routines require more than you can fit in 2:30. And that is the point. If you can't fit in everything now you have to pick and choose exactly what to put in AND execute correctly. I think if teams start getting crushed for execution this will help a lot.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

That is the thing coaches have yet to grasp: the routines require more than you can fit in 2:30. And that is the point. If you can't fit in everything now you have to pick and choose exactly what to put in AND execute correctly. I think if teams start getting crushed for execution this will help a lot.

I think that is the problem, maxing out is really tough, however to be in the high range w/ great execution is the smart way.

 

[gymcatmomx2]

This has been brought up many times at many meeting and gets shot down every time, here is why.

If you extend time limit to say 2:40 for choreography that's all fine and good until SOME gym uses that extra 10 seconds for skills. In order not to lose now every gym has just added 10 more seconds of skill.

Also EP's whine about it being a scheduling issue which I reply for each kid spending $75+ figure it out.

My personal opinion is routines should times based on level-
Levels 1&2 2:10
Levels 3&4 2:20
Level 5 Res 2:30
Worlds 5&6 2:40


I wouldn't be a fan of this at all. There is a huge change in difficulty between the levels.... Especially between 3 and 4.

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[gymcatmomx2]

I agree! I have a cp on a youth 3 squad. She has only 2 8 counts where she isn't stunting, tumbling, or jumping. I feel like she's a workhorse and I really miss the entertainer in her. Don't get me wrong she rocks her 2 8 counts but I would love more of the fluff.

This is so different for me. I prefer to watch my 2 CPs perform skills then watch them dance. After all, the skills is what I am ultimately paying for.

 

[yojaehs]

I would also like to add that I think the current scoring system is a product of many many mistakes in judging. When things are left up to subjective opinion mistakes happen. Yes, the current Worlds score sheet is subjective but I feel that because of other systems throughout the season Worlds is very similar to expectations throughout the season.