All-Star Are There Any Individual Parts Of Allstar Cheer?

[King]

I was taking into account ANY level that has a 'last specialty pass' in a routine.. like a PF step forward roll ro bhs bhs bhs bhs bhs bhs tuck (or whatever is the hardest pass in a level 3 routine)..what's the point of working those if they're not going to be used? Why not just learn skills straight (ro (as many handspring as possible) tuck/layout/full/double) with maybe a whip thrown in for good measure (at the appropriate levels) if complex, individual passes don't mean anything (or not as much). If so much emphasis is to be placed in the group, why bother even throwing it in if it does nothing for max score (I'm being particularly insistent on purpose ;) )

Why would a team or why would an athlete?

The chance to be last pass is very attractive, but if you are not throwing something amazing anymore there becomes less and less reason to have someone go on their own. Imagine if all last passes had to be a pair. Would make everything very interesting.

 

[King]

I also think we'll be seeing a lot of front-to-back group tumbling this year as well. I sat through a V!ROC choreography for a HS team this past week and it took two counts of eight for all running tumbling to be completed. 12 RO HS tucks went to the back, and the second they cleared the middle of the mat the fulls went in a group of 4. This definitely takes the individuality out of cheerleading, as more than half of the girls who tucked to the back had layouts. Granted this is a HS team and all you need are tucks and some fulls to max out on the 5 points of running tumbling there is this year, but I think we'll definitely see some similar changes because the Varsity Allstar scoresheet is basically identical per percentage. I'd LOVE to see more tumbling a la CA Panthers this year. Also makes viewing as a spectator easier, as it's a lot harder for the untrained eye to understand why certain passes don't score higher than others.

Unless the pass is ridiculous I imagine most teams will do what you just said to give time for that second stu t sequence that seems to be required these days.

 

[CheerKatie08]

Unless the pass is ridiculous I imagine most teams will do what you just said to give time for that second stu t sequence that seems to be required these days.

Right. And as for your original question of individuality, I think most people would rather see 5 groups do a quick innovative L3 stunt than see how many front walkovers Jenny Boom Boom can do before her tuck in the same amount of time.

 

[King]

Right. And as for your original question of individuality, I think most people would rather see 5 groups do a quick innovative L3 stunt than see how many front walkovers Jenny Boom Boom can do before her tuck in the same amount of time.

So to get rid of the argument of 'building is the only team part of cheerleading' let us throw a word in front of Standing or Running tumbling.

Group Standing and Group Running tumbling. (I don't think jumps really needs this word, but I could be wrong).

 

[lilmonstermaker]

The argument that stunting is truly the only aspect of a cheer routine that requires team work just doesn't make any sense to me. Synchronization of jumps and tumbling has been on some score sheets and even when it isn't it is often something that judges remark on. When we focus on getting team standing tucks, eyes are on 18 girls for that skill and even though all 18 of those girls also are responsible for the team double downs, I guarantee you that the vast majority of eyes are only on the 4 top girls...

 

[ShoWStoppeR]

see this to me is like one of those brain teaser things. there's no right or wrong answer, there's no clear answer, and while you think one thing its always another, stuff like that lol. no, this isn't an "individual" sport like say, gymnastics. when you do that beam, floor, bars, etc routine, its all you out there. you mess up, and you screwed yourself over. its up to you to, sorry for the cliche here but make it or break it. even though, then you have the team event or whatever (pardon me if im messing things up, i just watch the gymnasts, im in no way familiar with how these things work. lol just got with it.) where your individual score adds to the overall teams score. so if you scratch, bail, totally bomb your individual routine, it affects the overall score of the team. that's how i look at it. since everyone wants to compare us to gymnasts, there's one more thing i'd say we have in common. your role on the team, be it center dancer, center flyer, last pass, that's like one persons bar, beam, or floor routine. your score adds to the teams overall score. if you mess up your part, you hurt the whole team. but if you nail it, you're adding to the score. when a gymnastics team competes, one girls score doesn't win them a title. it helps, especially if they have a bomb routine, but one girl can't win it all. its like a puzzle, you need each piece to make it complete.

 

[King]

see this to me is like one of those brain teaser things. there's no right or wrong answer, there's no clear answer, and while you think one thing its always another, stuff like that lol. no, this isn't an "individual" sport like say, gymnastics. when you do that beam, floor, bars, etc routine, its all you out there. you mess up, and you screwed yourself over. its up to you to, sorry for the cliche here but make it or break it. even though, then you have the team event or whatever (pardon me if im messing things up, i just watch the gymnasts, im in no way familiar with how these things work. lol just got with it.) where your individual score adds to the overall teams score. so if you scratch, bail, totally bomb your individual routine, it affects the overall score of the team. that's how i look at it. since everyone wants to compare us to gymnasts, there's one more thing i'd say we have in common. your role on the team, be it center dancer, center flyer, last pass, that's like one persons bar, beam, or floor routine. your score adds to the teams overall score. if you mess up your part, you hurt the whole team. but if you nail it, you're adding to the score. when a gymnastics team competes, one girls score doesn't win them a title. it helps, especially if they have a bomb routine, but one girl can't win it all. its like a puzzle, you need each piece to make it complete.

I think that is a good way to look at it (though in gymnastics I hear it is quite an odd relationship... you want your team to win, but you want that girl to fall so you have the better score so you are more likely to go to the Olympics kinda thing).

It may take only one person to tumble, it may take only one person to jump, it may take 2 people to stunt (and usually takes 3 or 4 in our world), it make take 5 to basket, and it may take all 20 or 32 (or 30 or 36) to pyramid.. but it takes a team to win. So to say one section is more team oriented than another just doesnt make sense. (I am trying very hard not to bring a scoresheet into this, but it is so tempting).

To think of it another way, every sport has MVP's. Football, basketball, baseball... but how often does the team with the MVP not win? Tom Brady won it this past year for the patriots... but it didn't mean his team won (or even made the super bowl). No matter how big an individual contribution is on a team in no way shape or form is any section less team based or oriented.

 

[kristenthegreat]

So I think the general consensus is that although certain sections involve more individual contribution (an individuals pass/jump/dance motions), it is still wholly a team sport with team-based sections (that individual pass in a group section of tumbling, or the point jumper in jumps). While it may not be any less team based, it is more of the INDIVIDUAL effort combining into the collective TEAM section..individual highlight passes in tumbling not included.

 

[rvnblue]

I think that is a good way to look at it (though in gymnastics I hear it is quite an odd relationship... you want your team to win, but you want that girl to fall so you have the better score so you are more likely to go to the Olympics kinda thing).

It may take only one person to tumble, it may take only one person to jump, it may take 2 people to stunt (and usually takes 3 or 4 in our world), it make take 5 to basket, and it may take all 20 or 32 (or 30 or 36) to pyramid.. but it takes a team to win. So to say one section is more team oriented than another just doesnt make sense. (I am trying very hard not to bring a scoresheet into this, but it is so tempting).

To think of it another way, every sport has MVP's. Football, basketball, baseball... but how often does the team with the MVP not win? Tom Brady won it this past year for the patriots... but it didn't mean his team won (or even made the super bowl). No matter how big an individual contribution is on a team in no way shape or form is any section less team based or oriented.

Gymnastics being individual vs. team is based on the "level" at which you compete. At the Olympics, you see the team taking precedence because it is three up, three count (meaning three girls go on a piece of equipment and all three scores count towards the team score). There are, however, also the individual events and the individual all-around. At a college level, you want the college to win and yourself. Usually at lower "levels" it is an individual sport.

 

[tucknduck]

I think that is a good way to look at it (though in gymnastics I hear it is quite an odd relationship... you want your team to win, but you want that girl to fall so you have the better score so you are more likely to go to the Olympics kinda thing).

It may take only one person to tumble, it may take only one person to jump, it may take 2 people to stunt (and usually takes 3 or 4 in our world), it make take 5 to basket, and it may take all 20 or 32 (or 30 or 36) to pyramid.. but it takes a team to win. So to say one section is more team oriented than another just doesnt make sense. (I am trying very hard not to bring a scoresheet into this, but it is so tempting).

To think of it another way, every sport has MVP's. Football, basketball, baseball... but how often does the team with the MVP not win? Tom Brady won it this past year for the patriots... but it didn't mean his team won (or even made the super bowl). No matter how big an individual contribution is on a team in no way shape or form is any section less team based or oriented.

To put it in a nutshell, basically what you're saying is a team is as strong as it's weakest link. What's more glaing than a stunt or an athlete to fall or a breakdown in a stumt or routine? Now go to the other end of the spectrum by taking standout athlete who just made the most difficult tumble...Will it be enough? It will depend on the rest of the athletes success in executing the routine. In the dynamics of cheer & dance, the routine won't work unless everyone executes

 

[King]

To put it in a nutshell, basically what you're saying is a team is as strong as it's weakest link. What's more glaing than a stunt or an athlete to fall or a breakdown in a stumt or routine? Now go to the other end of the spectrum by taking standout athlete who just made the most difficult tumble...Will it be enough? It will depend on the rest of the athletes success in executing the routine. In the dynamics of cheer & dance, the routine won't work unless everyone executes

Exactly. As a horrible example I will use the Kentucky this year. With their stunt bobble they might have been OK, but their tumbling to the front busting had to play a part. Kentucky could only win if all their elements hit, the ones that might be considered individual based or not.

 

[cheeeeer93]

From the way you described it: To execute the skill itself takes one person, therefor it is more individualistic.

But the sum is worth more than the parts. As a counter point when Maddie did her 'highlight' stunt two years ago and everyone went nuts was that a team part? 4 people competed a skill... how is that different and more team based then having squad jumps? Yes there is a point person who runs it for pretty much all skills, but if the back row doesnt fullup and teh back row doesnt back tuck in jumps how are those two pieces different?

Adding onto this..
How much more do you think CEA got for that stunt? Did Maddie's one un-synchonized stunt win WORLDS for senior elite? Probably not. As far as stunts go, that was probably the closest you'll get to an 'individual' aspect and it probably didn't do too much for their score. If the whole team did it, it would definitely change their stunt score.

 

[SaraDee023]

i think to win, the team has to be together for everything....that one girl not landing her pass....or her forgetting her part could honestly make it or break it for the team in some cases. if everyone tries hard and puts forth the same amount of effort they will go far....but it seems like there is always "that girl" on the team who dosentbelong on that team and is lazy. these people can hold a team back because negative attitudes spread like wildfire.

 

[CGAcheer]

every aspect of cheer can be worked on individually(flyers can work on flexibility, bases can strength train, you can work on tumbling and jumps and if you learn to tumble and jumps to precise counts you can work on your synch) but its all of those individual skills coming together in a team effort that make cheer and team sports in general great.

another example is football- a quarterback can work on his throwing by himself, a receiver can work on his route running and can catch passes from a coach on his own, and a lineman can work on his technique, strength and agility on his own. But when the lineman blocks giving the quarter back enough time to hit the receiver right where he is supposed to be.