All-Star Cheer Conspiracy ???

[WCMAN]

All the talk about allstar cheer being recognised as a sport and it not happening makes me think there is more to it than meets the eye. It takes 2:30 to show that cheerleaders are athletes. So I ask whats the problem. Do you think the powers that be in cheer, Varsity, GK, Soffee etc. Don't want it to be recognised as a sport because it would grow so large that they would lose their grip $$$ on the sport to the larger Nike, Adidas,Reeboks of the World,who would see the large profit that can be made on cheer and run with it. What do you guys think. Am I crazy? LOL.

 

[WorkToWin]

i think it's more of people are stuck in the stereotypes, and haven't had the chance to watch the 2:30 routine. i don't think there is a conspiracy and that the powers in cheer would have any control of keeping cheer on the DL. i could be wrong though

 

[SheCheers]

I don't think it's a conspiracy, but I'm not sure varsity, et al, totally embrace the idea either. I think the biggest obstacle is resistance to change. I do think their are financial advantages and disadvantages to both it being and not being a sport. Plus there are obstacles such as everyone agreeing on a set of rules, etc.

 

[ztaprincess]

I don't think that it is a conspiracy, USA Cheer is trying to get recognized by NCAA. I have said it before that the way college cheer is now it is what is keeping it from becoming a sport. Sure the athleticism is there, but everything else is lacking. There is not a single set of rules or governing body which is crucial. This is a step that is going to take a while.

Of course this is just for college cheer, I dont see all star becoming a recognized sport (anytime soon) like college cheer might simply because it is club teams and that becomes a different ballgame then when a school is involved. The ICU teams are the only ones I see becoming recognized.

 

[chyeeaaa69]

I don't think you're entirely wrong that companies fear losing money, but it's not lacking the title of "sport" because of some conspiracy. Some reasons, and many people may disagree, why I don't think it is a sport (don't get me wrong, I'm not taking away from the athleticism, this is my 2nd favourite sport BUT, I don't believe it's a sport), not because of the physical aspect, but the fact that..
a) the United States has upwards of 15 "national" championships. There is no one company that holds the one competition that can be truly considered "national". A competition that is in the middle of nowhere that has 2 states being represented is not a "national" competition. If I were someone looking at the cheerleading world who knew nothing about it, I'd be confused.. I am confused. How can you consider yourself a "national champion" at a competition that was only represented by your state? On top of that, you probably didn't go against many people to get it. I respect competitions like Cheersport and NCA, those are 2 competitions that I would actually consider NATIONAL competitions.
b) The scoring is not refined enough, in my opinion. Now this one I KNOW people won't agree with. Look at sports like gymnastics and figure skating. They are two sports with very subjective scoresheets, however they are VERY specific about requirements for a routine/event, deductions, and give an overall difficulty score to work off of. We don't have that in cheerleading. Your routine is not presented to a judge on paper for that judge to say "okay the max score they can get is ____, now let me focus on execution" (takes some confusion away as to why Team A's stunt scored higher than Team B). Also, the deductions that a team face aren't clear, at least from what I can see. Take, for example, Shooting Stars from Return To Atlantis. One, maybe more, I don't remember in detail, switch up stretches cradled early, but some call it a fall... This, in cases that are not only regarding falls/early cradles, could result in different deductions. What one person may consider a tumbling bust, another may consider just a step forward, which would also result in possibly two different deductions. Of course, for anyone that knows gymnastics (I don't know figure skating all that well, so I'll use gymnastics specifically), there are grey areas, there always will be with subjective judging, but in my opinion, cheer has the most subjective scoresheet of any other "sport" (I say that in quotations because, as I said, at this moment I don't consider cheer a sport), and that should change before cheerleading ever goes to, let's say, the Olympics. (let's not make this a "should cheer be in the Olympics?" thread, that wasn't the point of my post)

 

[WorkToWin]

I don't think you're entirely wrong that companies fear losing money, but it's not lacking the title of "sport" because of some conspiracy. Some reasons, and many people may disagree, why I don't think it is a sport (don't get me wrong, I'm not taking away from the athleticism, this is my 2nd favourite sport BUT, I don't believe it's a sport), not because of the physical aspect, but the fact that..
a) the United States has upwards of 15 "national" championships. There is no one company that holds the one competition that can be truly considered "national". A competition that is in the middle of nowhere that has 2 states being represented is not a "national" competition. If I were someone looking at the cheerleading world who knew nothing about it, I'd be confused.. I am confused. How can you consider yourself a "national champion" at a competition that was only represented by your state? On top of that, you probably didn't go against many people to get it. I respect competitions like Cheersport and NCA, those are 2 competitions that I would actually consider NATIONAL competitions.
b) The scoring is not refined enough, in my opinion. Now this one I KNOW people won't agree with. Look at sports like gymnastics and figure skating. They are two sports with very subjective scoresheets, however they are VERY specific about requirements for a routine/event, deductions, and give an overall difficulty score to work off of. We don't have that in cheerleading. Your routine is not presented to a judge on paper for that judge to say "okay the max score they can get is ____, now let me focus on execution" (takes some confusion away as to why Team A's stunt scored higher than Team B). Also, the deductions that a team face aren't clear, at least from what I can see. Take, for example, Shooting Stars from Return To Atlantis. One, maybe more, I don't remember in detail, switch up stretches cradled early, but some call it a fall... This, in cases that are not only regarding falls/early cradles, could result in different deductions. What one person may consider a tumbling bust, another may consider just a step forward, which would also result in possibly two different deductions. Of course, for anyone that knows gymnastics (I don't know figure skating all that well, so I'll use gymnastics specifically), there are grey areas, there always will be with subjective judging, but in my opinion, cheer has the most subjective scoresheet of any other "sport" (I say that in quotations because, as I said, at this moment I don't consider cheer a sport), and that should change before cheerleading ever goes to, let's say, the Olympics. (let's not make this a "should cheer be in the Olympics?" thread, that wasn't the point of my post)

i understand everything you are saying... and I completely agree cheerleading needs improvement on those points. However, I don't think either of those would disqualify cheer from being classified as a sport.

 

[ztaprincess]

i understand everything you are saying... and I completely agree cheerleading needs improvement on those points. However, I don't think either of those would disqualify cheer from being classified as a sport.

The scoresheet can because there is no 1 clearly defined scoresheet that is used. If a Universal Scoresheet is introduced and used then it will help. Look at other sports like Basketball, Football, Basteball, ect. They have 1 "scoresheet." Sure they have pro and college that differs in some areas, but it is still universal in whatever league they are playing in. One set of rules, one way to score and get so many points, and one governing body. Cheer lacks in those area which, as much as I love cheer, makes me believe it is not a sport in the same sense as Basketball, Football, Baseball, ect. are.

 

[WCMAN]

I don't think you're entirely wrong that companies fear losing money, but it's not lacking the title of "sport" because of some conspiracy. Some reasons, and many people may disagree, why I don't think it is a sport (don't get me wrong, I'm not taking away from the athleticism, this is my 2nd favourite sport BUT, I don't believe it's a sport), not because of the physical aspect, but the fact that..
a) the United States has upwards of 15 "national" championships. There is no one company that holds the one competition that can be truly considered "national". A competition that is in the middle of nowhere that has 2 states being represented is not a "national" competition. If I were someone looking at the cheerleading world who knew nothing about it, I'd be confused.. I am confused. How can you consider yourself a "national champion" at a competition that was only represented by your state? On top of that, you probably didn't go against many people to get it. I respect competitions like Cheersport and NCA, those are 2 competitions that I would actually consider NATIONAL competitions.
b) The scoring is not refined enough, in my opinion. Now this one I KNOW people won't agree with. Look at sports like gymnastics and figure skating. They are two sports with very subjective scoresheets, however they are VERY specific about requirements for a routine/event, deductions, and give an overall difficulty score to work off of. We don't have that in cheerleading. Your routine is not presented to a judge on paper for that judge to say "okay the max score they can get is ____, now let me focus on execution" (takes some confusion away as to why Team A's stunt scored higher than Team B). Also, the deductions that a team face aren't clear, at least from what I can see. Take, for example, Shooting Stars from Return To Atlantis. One, maybe more, I don't remember in detail, switch up stretches cradled early, but some call it a fall... This, in cases that are not only regarding falls/early cradles, could result in different deductions. What one person may consider a tumbling bust, another may consider just a step forward, which would also result in possibly two different deductions. Of course, for anyone that knows gymnastics (I don't know figure skating all that well, so I'll use gymnastics specifically), there are grey areas, there always will be with subjective judging, but in my opinion, cheer has the most subjective scoresheet of any other "sport" (I say that in quotations because, as I said, at this moment I don't consider cheer a sport), and that should change before cheerleading ever goes to, let's say, the Olympics. (let's not make this a "should cheer be in the Olympics?" thread, that wasn't the point of my post)

I could not agree with you more the scoring needs help.... I also agree that National champ is a silly title. It only means that there is a National invitation to join the competition . So unless your in a state championship, every competition is open to the nation and can crown a national champ. Does seem silly.

 

[star1998]

The only people who can understand how the game of cheerleading is played.... is someone who is directly involved with the sport. Even then, some of us still don't understand how someone wins. It can take years to learn how the game is played. When it does become more refined in the future, we might not like the changes. Too many rules might ruin it for some and definately change what we are currently use to. Does anyone know if someone is actually working on a universal score sheet? Who?

 

[Hodiestoe]

Coming into cheerleading having been a trampoline coach, judge and competitor for many years, I found it all very confusing and ad hoc. In trampolining it is very simple; you have a routine which is given a tariff (mark of difficulty) each of the 10 moves you perform are given their own points of difficulty and this is added up to give you an overall tariff score. Then you compete the routine. There is a tariff judge making sure you do what you say you have written down on your tariff sheet and then there are 5 other judges awarding marks for execution alone. This is the subjective part but on any one move you can only be 0.3 away from your fellow judges and so narrows the margin for error. The highest and lowest scores from the 5 execution judges are removed and the middle 3 are added together with your tariff to give you an overall score. There is room for subjectivity but the margins are small.

This is in complete contrast to some cheer comps I have been to where marks have varied wildly and for no apparent reason. I truly believe in order for cheerleading to be taken seriously in the sporting world there does need to be a universal way of marking and all judges should be appropriately qualified.

I don't see why there cannot be two different disciplines of cheerleading - collegiate (high school) and allstar - each having their own set of rules and competitions. There are many different disciplines of gymnastics with many different rule sets, and that works. I also think there should only be one set of 'nationals' for each discipline, maybe the winners of all the different comps around the country could compete in it just like they do for trampolining.

 

[ztaprincess]

I don't see why there cannot be two different disciplines of cheerleading - collegiate (high school) and allstar - each having their own set of rules and competitions. There are many different disciplines of gymnastics with many different rule sets, and that works. I also think there should only be one set of 'nationals' for each discipline, maybe the winners of all the different comps around the country could compete in it just like they do for trampolining.

I do believe there should be different "leagues" such as high school, collegiate, and all star where the rules and scoresheets can vary. Basketball is the same way, in college and the pros things are different so in cheer it could work the same way. But in each "league" there should be 1 set of everything in order to make it more unified.

 

[Hodiestoe]

I do believe there should be different "leagues" such as high school, collegiate, and all star where the rules and scoresheets can vary. Basketball is the same way, in college and the pros things are different so in cheer it could work the same way. But in each "league" there should be 1 set of everything in order to make it more unified.

It's late here, I didn't mean rules as such but more limitations. School trampolining has more limitations than club trampolining and I meant this in the way it can be applied to Allstars vs Collegiate (incl High School). But yeah, your 'leagues' covers that ;)

 

[MissBee]

All the talk about allstar cheer being recognised as a sport and it not happening makes me think there is more to it than meets the eye. It takes 2:30 to show that cheerleaders are athletes. So I ask whats the problem. Do you think the powers that be in cheer, Varsity, GK, Soffee etc. Don't want it to be recognised as a sport because it would grow so large that they would lose their grip $$$ on the sport to the larger Nike, Adidas,Reeboks of the World,who would see the large profit that can be made on cheer and run with it. What do you guys think. Am I crazy? LOL.

I think it's exactly this. They'll all afraid of losing their piece of the pie.

 

[PghxCheer2]

I don't think you're entirely wrong that companies fear losing money, but it's not lacking the title of "sport" because of some conspiracy. Some reasons, and many people may disagree, why I don't think it is a sport (don't get me wrong, I'm not taking away from the athleticism, this is my 2nd favourite sport BUT, I don't believe it's a sport), not because of the physical aspect, but the fact that..
a) the United States has upwards of 15 "national" championships. There is no one company that holds the one competition that can be truly considered "national". A competition that is in the middle of nowhere that has 2 states being represented is not a "national" competition. If I were someone looking at the cheerleading world who knew nothing about it, I'd be confused.. I am confused. How can you consider yourself a "national champion" at a competition that was only represented by your state? On top of that, you probably didn't go against many people to get it. I respect competitions like Cheersport and NCA, those are 2 competitions that I would actually consider NATIONAL competitions.
b) The scoring is not refined enough, in my opinion. Now this one I KNOW people won't agree with. Look at sports like gymnastics and figure skating. They are two sports with very subjective scoresheets, however they are VERY specific about requirements for a routine/event, deductions, and give an overall difficulty score to work off of. We don't have that in cheerleading. Your routine is not presented to a judge on paper for that judge to say "okay the max score they can get is ____, now let me focus on execution" (takes some confusion away as to why Team A's stunt scored higher than Team B). Also, the deductions that a team face aren't clear, at least from what I can see. Take, for example, Shooting Stars from Return To Atlantis. One, maybe more, I don't remember in detail, switch up stretches cradled early, but some call it a fall... This, in cases that are not only regarding falls/early cradles, could result in different deductions. What one person may consider a tumbling bust, another may consider just a step forward, which would also result in possibly two different deductions. Of course, for anyone that knows gymnastics (I don't know figure skating all that well, so I'll use gymnastics specifically), there are grey areas, there always will be with subjective judging, but in my opinion, cheer has the most subjective scoresheet of any other "sport" (I say that in quotations because, as I said, at this moment I don't consider cheer a sport), and that should change before cheerleading ever goes to, let's say, the Olympics. (let's not make this a "should cheer be in the Olympics?" thread, that wasn't the point of my post)

Couldn't agree with you more. ESPECIALLY the scoring. To even understand the basics of competitive cheerleading (ie: allstar and college) when you are an outsider, is EXTREMELY difficult. For most sports, it's easy to look at it and say they run, pass, hit, kick, etc. and that's how you score a point(s). Even in a sport like gymnastics, as chyeaaa69 said, you have a ceiling score and you deduct for every mistake. At the Visa's, Olympics, and World C hampionships, Rebecca Bross will have the same exact ceiling score when she throws her routine. In cheer that's just not the case. Every competion has a completely different and subjunctive score sheet.

 

[WorkToWin]

it's okay guys... i have a solution... universal scoresheet! I already know, you don't have to tell me I'm a genius.

in all seriousness... why aren't universal scoresheets happening? I know they have been discussed a million and one times on here but what's stopping it?