All-Star Crossovers Just To Get Paid

[flcheermom]

I think every team has been in that situation that they have had an injury at the last minute they needed a crossover for-or people quitting at the last minute. It is not like other sports that have a bench to pull from if someone is hurt or a no show. There are alternates, but those are usually from other teams. I am not from a gym that has used a lot of cross overs. It has usually only been in a situation in an injury or someone quit. How do you just make crossover rules for certain situations? - but if you didn't allow crossovers, then like this weekend at NCA when the weather prevented travel some teams had to rely on them to compete, what would they have done? - or an injury in warm ups. I am sure there is a way to come up with rules but no one wants to.

 

[SL&AM]

You could also make the argument that there may be a great athlete (or 15) on a team that was in no way capable of making the Worlds trip without a paid bid. So, 5 years from now, would those athletes remember HOW they got there, or would they remember the fun, memories and opportunity they had to go?
I'm of the opinion that morals can't be black-and-white. There will always be an exception to the "rule." I don't think broke, talented kids should miss out because Mommy and/or Daddy can't pay a grand for a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

I'm prefacing this with this isn't the exact same situation and cheer and dance are different for a lot of reasons.

Now that I've said this, back when I danced I was on a competitive team that was still pretty new to the industry. We didn't do Dance World's but we did NDA National's in Orlando. To get an invitation you could go to x competitions and be invited OR you could hold their summer camp and get invited based off a performance.

My team, still new and not really as polished did not get an invitation based on our performance at camp while the other senior team and junior teams (two categories) did. Due to the summer camps, it was never arranged for us to attend a comp that we'd have to get an invitation so our 'shot' was basically gone. However, the senior team got an invitation based on two categories; jazz and pom. Our team, after a slight shift, became the new senior pom team. The other senior team became just jazz instead of both.

About two months before National's we were asked, as a team, if we'd want to go---it would mean more money, another trip...etc, etc. Our team and parents decided to take it. At the time I never put two and two together because I was young and new to competitive dance (I had only danced at a studio prior to this).

About a week before the competition our owner made a comment and someone said something and basically it came out that our team didn't earn the invite we were using the one from camp even though the team was 100% different. Our team had a great season, we placed well, we did well, we learned a lot and so forth; but that one comment hurt. And this is to a competition for invites not bids---us going didn't mean someone else couldn't.

Despite going, competing, and placing 2nd I still feeling salty when I think about it.

So yes, it is possible that down the road these athletes will think about it with a new perspective. To assume they won't is too generalized.

Was my experience at National's fun? Absolutely. Did I love the experience? Yes. But did I deserve to go with the team I was on? No. Would I allow my own CP to be on a team or with a gym that does this type of thing? Nope.

Ethics to me are black and white; to me, there is no grey in this situation.

 

[crazzyeyesassypants]

I personally love watching teams in a division when the majority of the teams HIT! I think when they all hit and your teams wins it must feel amazing for the team wining, same goes for crosserovers if all the teams in division S4 don't have crossovers and it becomes a fair battle and so exciting to watch, not that it isn't exciting watching a level one team beat another team stacked of level 4 athletes! I know everything can't be perfect with any sports but I just don't want to see so many parents, athletes and coaches feeling like they have been cheated season after season!


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[Mamarazzi]

So yes, it is possible that down the road these athletes will think about it with a new perspective. To assume they won't is too generalized.

Was my experience at National's fun? Absolutely. Did I love the experience? Yes. But did I deserve to go with the team I was on? No. Would I allow my own CP to be on a team or with a gym that does this type of thing? Nope.

Ethics to me are black and white; to me, there is no grey in this situation.

I'm sorry that's the feeling you carried away from your experience. That stinks.

Your moral fiber is apparently made from a different thread than others', which is just fine.

 

[kristenthegreat]

I think it's currently just as big a concern at Summit as it is at Worlds, especially while they had/have that rule about deferred Summit bids (so you could come back the next year with an entirely new team).

Some gyms don't care as much if it's just Worlds (or don't care if it has nothing to do with Worlds). But Worlds/Summit affects EVERYONE. We should curtail it, even if it's just a little at a time.

 

[amy1k]

I think it's currently just as big a concern at Summit as it is at Worlds, especially while they had/have that rule about deferred Summit bids (so you could come back the next year with an entirely new team).

Some gyms don't care as much if it's just Worlds (or don't care if it has nothing to do with Worlds). But Worlds/Summit affects EVERYONE. We should curtail it, even if it's just a little at a time.

Regarding the deferrable Summit bids: this year they are ONLY able to be used at Summit 2016. Just FYI. Still only four bids, though. I'm not sure that any of the teams who deferred were able to use the bids in a way that proved to be an advantage. I know one from last season isn't being used because they are fielding a different size team than they won the bid with.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

Not going to be the popular opinion but I blame the parents of both the elite kids helping the team and the kids permanently on the team. If enough parents said "No this isn't ok" the gym owners wouldn't do it. But so many parents want wins and fame at any cost so they go with it.

Can't even tell you how many times I heard parents say they didn't like a decision a gym owner made that they thought crossed a moral line but went along with it because it "helped the team or gym". As many said before, the owner is running a business and if parents like the idea of saying they sent the most worlds teams at any costs then the gym owners will do it.

 

[catlady]

You could also make the argument that there may be a great athlete (or 15) on a team that was in no way capable of making the Worlds trip without a paid bid. So, 5 years from now, would those athletes remember HOW they got there, or would they remember the fun, memories and opportunity they had to go?
I'm of the opinion that morals can't be black-and-white. There will always be an exception to the "rule." I don't think broke, talented kids should miss out because Mommy and/or Daddy can't pay a grand for a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

So, we need to start turning in our W2's to determine who is worthy of crossovers? Every single gym out there has people that struggle paycheck to paycheck. How do you determine what gym's kids deserve it more than another?

 

[Mamarazzi]

So, we need to start turning in our W2's to determine who is worthy of crossovers? Every single gym out there has people that struggle paycheck to paycheck. How do you determine what gym's kids deserve it more than another?

Actually, right-wing, I didn't say anyone was worthy of crossovers. My entire point is to help someone maybe understand that there are reasons why moral issues can't always be cut and dry and why the crossover issue has pros and cons on both sides of the equation. If you read my earlier post you would see that i've been on both sides. I am on both sides. And I have to tread that tightrope very carefully.
I'm making a, what seems futile now, attempt at trying to get many of y'all to look at the issue from another standpoint, so please reserve your W2s for the feds. I don't need em.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

^^^^I don't think folks realize that there's a difference between being all about crossovers and legitimately trying to see both sides of an issue.

I admit to seeing things from a coaching perspective and not always considering things from an ownership/parental/athlete lens.

 

[Pebbles49]

Formerly, Pebbles49;

I know some of you are going to want to spit on me for saying this...Looking at this dilemma from those big gym recruited super athletes side, I witnessed the pressure that are placed on their shoulders to get this paid bid... We are only talking about the successful crossovers, but if it is not successful the recruited athletes are vilified by those kids who wanted to go and were willing to nugget or do anything in the routine for a paid bid and compete on a Worlds stage...At the time, when the crossing over was occurring , all was great and I you never hear team parents complaining about these athletes affect on their child's psyche or feelings, only when they are not successful at the mission...Just saying!

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Formerly, Pebbles49;

I know some of you are going to want to spit on me for saying this...Looking at this dilemma from those big gym recruited super athletes side, I witnessed the pressure that are placed on their shoulders to get this paid bid... We are only talking about the successful crossovers, but if it is not successful the recruited athletes are vilified by those kids who wanted to go and were willing to nugget or do anything in the routine for a paid bid and compete on a Worlds stage...At the time, when the crossing over was occurring , all was great and I you never hear team parents complaining about these athletes affect on their child's psyche or feelings, only when they are not successful at the mission...Just saying!

I'd imagine. It's all fun and games until the plan you had with strategically placed crossovers doesn't actually work.

I think that Bigger Gym parents tend to really want those paid bids, too. There is pressure to deliver because let's face it, no one wants to shell out more $ than they have to, and depending on the gym and team, they are USED to getting paid.

 

[Cheermom1969]

I'd imagine. It's all fun and games until the plan you had with strategically placed crossovers doesn't actually work.

I think that Bigger Gym parents tend to really want those paid bids, too. There is pressure to deliver because let's face it, no one wants to shell out more $ than they have to, and depending on the gym and team, they are USED to getting paid.

That's called karma. ;)

 

[12stepCheermom]

My CP gym is a small gym and they try to keep cross overs to a minimum. After the start of the season 2 or 3 crossovers on a team have a tendency to creep up one or two more athletes with injuries or if people quit mid season. Without the crossovers our teams would be very smal 13 or 14 girls vs 15 to 17 girls.I have no problem with an athlete competing up or down one level. Do I think it's ethical to create a stacked team just to win? NO. My definition of stacked would be 50% of the athletes have higher level tumbling skills than where they compete.

Here is a question for you if you have 4 girls that have level 5 skills but have no level 5 team is it a problem to compete level 4?

I don't have a crossover issue really. I think small gyms survive by them and all teams in emergencies need them. Heck my own cp14 crossed over at Indy to her brothers team because of an injury and she was the only available body. Stuff like that happens. Crossovers are the only way to handle it in a pinch.

I'm talking about teams made up entirely of crossovers from higher levels.....like it's all the kids "second" team and they're all coming from higher levels. That's not crossing over so much as sandbagging and that's the issue I have. But we have tons of threads on the difference between stacking/sandbagging/crossing over.

 

[GreatWhite92]

I'd imagine. It's all fun and games until the plan you had with strategically placed crossovers doesn't actually work.

I think that Bigger Gym parents tend to really want those paid bids, too. There is pressure to deliver because let's face it, no one wants to shell out more $ than they have to, and depending on the gym and team, they are USED to getting paid.

So because the big gym parents expect a paid, They have to do whatever it takes to take it from a smaller gym who has worked their booties off without any crossovers from better teams because they are the only worlds team in their area. That seems fair....


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