From Flyer To Base?

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

And it really is actually OK to want to be a star. What? Yes, it's true. (and I know the op says she doesn't only want that, but I'd say that too in this crowd) I work with nothing but people who want to be stars. They audition every week for stuff. Sometimes they get starring roles - sometimes they get put in the ensemble. And you know what? They get disappointed and salty about it. And then they move on and sing and dance in the background like it's what they wanted all along. Believe it or not, this is normal, AND OK.

I tend to think that dance kids handle "no" or "change from star to ensemble" better than cheer kids handle position changes.

I also think that competitive dance introduces kids to change and rejection at earlier ages so they're just, well, used to it.

Ex: 9 year old dancer has been told "no" like 4 times JUST THIS WEEKEND. So being told she's going from lead to ensemble is just, whatever.

Dance is also very fluid in that changes are being made all. the. time. to routines (moreso than cheer.) A kid doesn't really get comfortable in a spot because the configurations are changed every few rehearsals and you just know that where you are now is not where you might be when the recital or competition comes.

In cheer, I think we tend to lose sight of the importance of kids knowing how to work at different positions. They're comfortable by the time they're Youth aged. So when it's time to make the Junior jump and there's a position change, they can't always handle it.

 

[cheer25mom]

I tend to think that dance kids handle "no" or "change from star to ensemble" better than cheer kids handle position changes.

I also think that competitive dance introduces kids to change and rejection at earlier ages so they're just, well, used to it.

Ex: 9 year old dancer has been told "no" like 4 times JUST THIS WEEKEND. So being told she's going from lead to ensemble is just, whatever.

Dance is also very fluid in that changes are being made all. the. time. to routines (moreso than cheer.) A kid doesn't really get comfortable in a spot because the configurations are changed every few rehearsals and you just know that where you are now is not where you might be when the recital or competition comes.

In cheer, I think we tend to lose sight of the importance of kids knowing how to work at different positions. They're comfortable by the time they're Youth aged. So when it's time to make the Junior jump and there's a position change, they can't always handle it.

You know, you are right. I guess having danced all my life, and CP dancing well before she started cheer, I guess we are looking at it from that perspective.

 

[Pebbles49]

I have to totally agree with @oncecoolcoachnowmom, what I noticed in the 3 yrs my daughter has been doing cheerleading - Many cheerleaders can spend their whole cheer career in one position, particularly, flyers... Like I say in another thread, I think, cheerleaders who starts out as base have an advantage over girls who starts out as flyers, in my opinion... The cheerleaders such as my daughter, are so versatile and are able to do all positions and are often asked to help out when other cheerleaders are absent on other teams... My daughter spent a short time first as a Side Base, moved to Main base, when girl quit on the team and the last 2 years, backspots on a Yth team, she was able to make these changes without the "woe is me" attitude and at a minutes notice... She also can fly, if asked to fly - all the stretching and pulling of different positions, her attitude is what is needed and she loves the learning of the different positions. However, I wondered if my daughter would have had this attitude, if she started out as a Flyer, I think not!

PS: When my daughter started out as a Side and Main Base at 8 on a Jr. Lvl team, her flyer was 10 and was bigger than her and she lifted this girl without complaining about this girl's size, she just did it and btw, was good at it...​

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

And people don't believe me but versatility is PRICELESS when it comes to college tryouts.

At your most competitive all-girl programs, the competition is DEEP for flyers. Every other girl is trying out mainly as a flyer.

The advantage lies with those who can do both really well.

 

[12stepCheermom]

And people don't believe me but versatility is PRICELESS when it comes to college tryouts.

At your most competitive all-girl programs, the competition is DEEP for flyers. Every other girl is trying out mainly as a flyer.

The advantage lies with those who can do both really well.

I actually think it makes you better at both jobs if you've done them both. Regardless of the order it happened in. Cp14 flew (back in the day). She based Y3 and flew J2. She is an intuitive stunter now. She hasn't flown since 2010 but having had the experience of both sides she "gets" both sides. It's a pretty common complaint that when a stunt falls everyone blames the flyer. Maybe being the mom of a kid who did both sides 1) I don't blame anyone because that's bad karma and my kid will be the next deduction and 2) I've seen just as many stunts fall from issues underneath than ones from the flyer. It may be "Susie's group" that came down but that doesn't mean it was Susie's fault.

 

[Pebbles49]

You know 12stepCheermom, I do not blame anybody when a stunt comes down... I think, when judges are judging a team, the whole team is scored and therefore, when a stunt falls it is the whole team that is penalized, not individuals on the team. So I said all of that to simply say, it is the stunt groups fault... Let's face it, if we are going to harp on cheerleading is a team sport, why blame individuals when mistakes are made, look at everybody as being wrong and work on everybody techniques... Stop blaming the flyers for stunts falling and stop only penalizing the bases and backspots with running laps or extra conditioning because they dropped the flyers. Everybody should be running or giving extra conditioning, Period!

 

[Cheer Dad]

You know 12stepCheermom, I do not blame anybody when a stunt comes down... I think, when judges are judging a team, the whole team is scored and therefore, when a stunt falls it is the whole team that is penalized, not individuals on the team. So I said all of that to simply say, it is the stunt group fault... Let's face it, if we are going to harp on cheerleading is a team sport, why blame individuals when mistakes are made, look at everybody as being wrong and work on everybody techniques... Stop blaming the flyers for stunts falling and stop only penalizing the bases and backspots with running laps or extra conditioning because they dropped the flyers. Everybody should be running or giving extra conditioning, Period!

There are scenarios where it may not be the whole groups fault a stunt came down. I have no issue with cp running laps because the flyer came down and wasn't caught. It is not because the flyer is more important but in a more vulnerable position for injury and reliant upon those under her to catch her.

 

[cheer25mom]

You know 12stepCheermom, I do not blame anybody when a stunt comes down... I think, when judges are judging a team, the whole team is scored and therefore, when a stunt falls it is the whole team that is penalized, not individuals on the team. So I said all of that to simply say, it is the stunt group fault... Let's face it, if we are going to harp on cheerleading is a team sport, why blame individuals when mistakes are made, look at everybody as being wrong and work on everybody techniques... Stop blaming the flyers for stunts falling and stop only penalizing the bases and backspots with running laps or extra conditioning because they dropped the flyers. Everybody should be running or giving extra conditioning, Period!

ITA. Whoever is responsible should be running, base or flyer. Flyers are definitely at a higher risk of catastrophic injury, but my CP had suffered injuries as a result of flyers no doing thief jobs. She has a shoulder that still gives her problems that is a result of a flyer with poor cradle technique who refused to fix it. Everyone in a stunt group is responsible for giving 100% every time because the safety of EVERYONE else is at risk if they don't.

 

[Cheermom1969]

My daughter has never required an explanation when changing roles. It's always been "you're basing in this group" or "you're flying here". End of discussion.

The last three years my daughter has always been, ok, which group am I back spotting? She's always been one of the tallest on her team. Flying has never been in her genes. But I do sympathize with girls who love to do one position but then have to switch for whatever reason. It takes an adjustment but if they would just be patient, in most cases everything works out. Children don't don't have much patience. And the parents that flip out about a change don't help. (not directed at you, dawg)

 

[mamabear]

I think that one of the reasons that some kids get upset when they are suddenly moved from flying is because they are usually required to spend more time in the gym than the rest of the team. Flight School and flexibility classes and stunt clinics take money. time, and extra effort. Most of them work very hard to fulfill the "Flyer only" requirements of a team and it has to hurt when they get moved. It doesn't matter if it is because the bases are weak, or if they are weak, or if the team just needs another configuration. While they know that it is for the betterment of the team, I am guessing that all they might hear is that they aren't good enough.

 

[Ashley]

In my experience it seems that the moms take it hardest when flyers are moved to any other position, but the hardest transition for an athlete herself to accept is a base becoming a flyer. "Am I too small/too weak/not doing my job right on the ground? I don't like all the eyes of fans on me/more pressure/having to perform more/etc." That's why I think that no matter the age of the athlete, or what position is changing, the coach has a responsibility to break that news gently.

Where's the line between breaking the news gently and coddling? There's a difference between saying "hey fatty mcfatty, have you stepped on a scale recently? You're too fat to fly." or even mandatory weigh ins, and a new year and new tryouts with a crop of bitties who are obviously more suited to be flyers. Obviously no coach is going to break the news by saying "grab a shoe, princess." You're allowed to be upset about the transition, but at some point you need to suck it up and put on a brave face and deal with it. If you keep pouting about it (and obviously I'm not talking about OP right now) you deserve to be told "grab a show, princess."

Cheer is a team sport and positions will be changed, just like in any sport. Especially in college, you're dealing with adults. You don't need to hold their hand to break them the news. The New England Patriots have a wide receiver - Julian Edelman, who was a quarterback all through college. His scouting report was brutal, basically saying he would never make it. No one held his hand and broke the news that he would never be an NFL quarterback, he didn't pout because he didn't get to be the star anyway. He worked his booty off to do what he needed to do.

 

[mecheermom]

And people don't believe me but versatility is PRICELESS when it comes to college tryouts.

At your most competitive all-girl programs, the competition is DEEP for flyers. Every other girl is trying out mainly as a flyer.

The advantage lies with those who can do both really well.

How I wish all Susie's moms knew this...

 

[TheVipersMom]

I'll tell you this 9 times out of 10 it is my daughters fault her stunt comes out of the air. So 9 times out 10 I expect them to make her run 100 laps or do push-ups even if it's by herself. I expect her 9 times out of 10 to be told she is being moved to show team if she doesn't get it together. When my daughters stunt falls and it's actually not her fault then that's great. I'm ok with only the bases being reprimanded or the whole STUNT group being reprimanded. Why am I ok when the whole stunt group gets in trouble when for once it's not my daughters fault? because if she would of done what she was suppose to the other times those 9 times wouldn't have happened.

I truly don't care who they blame.

And yes when my daughter falls at comp, everyone is going to say well Jaylen fell even if it is not her fault!! And that's ok to! Take responsibility for your actions!

if she comes home and tell's me of a problem she is having with her bases (this year her bases are amazing and nothing but positive toward Jaylen) however she does have an issue with a pyramid base I tell her I really don't care! She says this girl blames her and yells at her and says everything is her fault even when it hits Jaylen doesn't do anything right apparently. I said ok so how do you know it's not your fault she said because the other bases tell me it's not. I said well be a big girl and call the coaches over there and say can you watch this. What is wrong! I said if you are not going to be proactive and alert the coaches to a problem then I don't want to hear another word about it. I can't say it for you ... I'm not going to tell our head coach to go watch your pyramid group. You are a big girl you aren't 5 anymore! There is 31 people on this team there are so many girls up at one time they can't see everything or hear it.

(Sorry that last part had nothing to do with this convo) but this is a team sport. If you fly great, if you're a wanna be flyer that's great too! We have a whole bunch of wanna be flyers in our stretch classes and they didn't fly last year but because they kept up their stuff some of them are getting flyer roles on bigger/older girls and they are loving it.

Also a lot of times not only because there is less flyers on a team then bases its harder for a flyer to move up.
Our flyers all but 1 easily have level 4 specialty tumbling and they are on large j3, and everyone that has level 4 tumbling is the age of 9 (except one of them) with birthdays to be 10 between Jan-May. However we didn't have basically any junior aged bases to make a j4 and these girls can't base themselves and 6 flyers would not make a very good j4 lol. So there are a bunch of older (so bigger by default) girls flying on our large s4 this year but honestly I don't see really any of them being able to fly next year if all these 10 year olds move up. So I feel we will have quite the issue next year!


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[driverto6]

I actually think it makes you better at both jobs if you've done them both. Regardless of the order it happened in. Cp14 flew (back in the day). She based Y3 and flew J2. She is an intuitive stunter now. She hasn't flown since 2010 but having had the experience of both sides she "gets" both sides. It's a pretty common complaint that when a stunt falls everyone blames the flyer. Maybe being the mom of a kid who did both sides 1) I don't blame anyone because that's bad karma and my kid will be the next deduction and 2) I've seen just as many stunts fall from issues underneath than ones from the flyer. It may be "Susie's group" that came down but that doesn't mean it was Susie's fault.

It would be awesome if everyone could learn all positions. Unfortunately some kids (like mine) are just too short/small to be a back or base. It's not now and has never been her decision or choice to be a flyer, I know she would base in a heartbeat if she was ever given the chance...it's just not something that a coach has ever considered. Maybe the day will come and if it does then awesome, the more experience she gets in all positions, the better all-around cheerleader she will be.

It is hard to hear the "Suzie's Group" comments if something happens at competition. I am sure no one on this board would ever make those comments, but I can tell you that a lot of parents/CPs on the team say it and they say right where my little CP can hear it. It's horrible, because sometimes it is her fault, but sometimes it is not. And honestly, I can't recall a time in the 5 years she has been cheering that I have heard someone say "Oh Betty Backspot's group came down". Because of this I will NEVER allow my CP to say "So and so had a tumble bust, or so and so didn't catch a foot so her stunt came down." No blaming any particular teammates if things don't go well. She can say "we (as in our team) had a tumble bust and we dropped a stunt"...always WE, because what happens to one on a team happens to all!!

If we want to stop identifying the flyer as some 'special' position on the team, then we need to start thinking about what we say, and who we blame if something goes wrong during a stunt. Because I can tell you that if you "feel" that the success or failure of a stunt falls squarely on your shoulders and yours alone (because that is what you hear year after year), then you are going to start to feel that somehow your position is different than the others on the team. If we want to see the Princess mentality disappear, we all need to help bring that little girl back to reality by recognizing that everything that happens in cheer happens on a "team level", not an individual level.

 

[ashscott41]

Where's the line between breaking the news gently and coddling? There's a difference between saying "hey fatty mcfatty, have you stepped on a scale recently? You're too fat to fly." or even mandatory weigh ins, and a new year and new tryouts with a crop of bitties who are obviously more suited to be flyers. Obviously no coach is going to break the news by saying "grab a shoe, princess." You're allowed to be upset about the transition, but at some point you need to suck it up and put on a brave face and deal with it. If you keep pouting about it (and obviously I'm not talking about OP right now) you deserve to be told "grab a show, princess."

Cheer is a team sport and positions will be changed, just like in any sport. Especially in college, you're dealing with adults. You don't need to hold their hand to break them the news. The New England Patriots have a wide receiver - Julian Edelman, who was a quarterback all through college. His scouting report was brutal, basically saying he would never make it. No one held his hand and broke the news that he would never be an NFL quarterback, he didn't pout because he didn't get to be the star anyway. He worked his booty off to do what he needed to do.

I guess I would say the difference lies in the passage of time. Break the news gently, allow a few practices for some frustration while learning the new position, but if they're being a brat about it after a few weeks, then yes I agree it's ok to call a spade a spade.

As for the football thing, I guess I kind of agree kind of disagree? One of my friends from high school plays for the Titans now in a position that was not his first choice. If you asked him if he wanted to be a receiver he would take the opportunity immediately. He plays on special teams because he loves football, but that doesn't mean he wasn't initially bummed about it. Scouts, agents, coaches at HS/college/pro levels, trainers, his family, everyone involved in his football career helped break the news that his dream of catching touchdown passes in the NFL was probably never coming true. There were a number of meetings where he was told that. No one held his hand (and I don't want cheer coaches to hold hands either) but there absolutely were plenty of people involved in making the transition as easy as possible.