Helicopter Release Move

[KPep]

Hi! My question is quite simple.

Could this helicopter toss be legal if it started on the belly and ended on the back (level 5)?

 

[KPep]

...Anyone?

 

[Official OWECheer]

...Anyone?

I think I saw a JTV video of this once (CEA Salem). Not sure whether its legal.

 

[KPep]

I think I saw a JTV video of this once (CEA Salem). Not sure whether its legal.

I though I saw that too at CEA showcase... but I can't find the video...

 

[SarahS]

The helicopter rule in level 5 release moves mentions 180 degrees rotation and doesn't mention twisting (whereas level 4 helicopters specifically allow 180 degrees rotation and NO twisting), so then you're limited to the stunt twisting rules, which allow up to 2 1/4 twist. Therefore, this should be legal.

A coach should take a video of the specific skill being performed and email it to the usasfrules email (pm me if you need to know the email - it is for coaches only, so I don't want to post it in the open forum).

 

[mstealtoyou]

I though I saw that too at CEA showcase... but I can't find the video...

If it's Salem look for a Legacy video.

 

[Kat_E]

Illegal because there is no one at the head and shoulders for the catch. USASF say that a person must be positioned directly at the head and shoulders area (i.e. top of the flyer's head).

 

[SarahS]

Illegal because there is no one at the head and shoulders for the catch. USASF say that a person must be positioned directly at the head and shoulders area (i.e. top of the flyer's head).

What part of the level 5 release moves (this is a release move, not a dismount or a toss) requires this? Here's what level 5 release moves (G) says (shortened by me):
1. No releases above 18" above extended arm level (or else it has to follow toss or dismount rules)
2. Release moves may not land inverted and releases from inverted to non inverted may not twist (with one exception) and releases landing at prep or above must have a spotter
3. Must return to original bases (with a couple exceptions)
4. The helicopter rule I noted above
5. May not intentionally travel
6. Over/under rule
7. Flyers in release moves cannot contact each other (one exception)

None of those mention anything about where catchers must be placed. Please cite your source for why you think this is illegal (rules section, letter and number).

 

[KPep]

I think I saw a JTV video of this once (CEA Salem). Not sure whether its legal.

I found it and they start on the back and end on the belly with the half twisting. Same as my gif above.

 

[Kat_E]

What part of the level 5 release moves (this is a release move, not a dismount or a toss) requires this? Here's what level 5 release moves (G) says (shortened by me):
1. No releases above 18" above extended arm level (or else it has to follow toss or dismount rules)
2. Release moves may not land inverted and releases from inverted to non inverted may not twist (with one exception) and releases landing at prep or above must have a spotter
3. Must return to original bases (with a couple exceptions)
4. The helicopter rule I noted above
5. May not intentionally travel
6. Over/under rule
7. Flyers in release moves cannot contact each other (one exception)

None of those mention anything about where catchers must be placed. Please cite your source for why you think this is illegal (rules section, letter and number).

Stunts G4
Helicopters are allowed up to a 180 degree rotation and must be caught by at least 3 catchers, one of which is positioned at head and shoulder area of the top person.

I was instructed by USASF to deduct when there was no catcher at the top of the head.

 

[SarahS]

Stunts G4
Helicopters are allowed up to a 180 degree rotation and must be caught by at least 3 catchers, one of which is positioned at head and shoulder area of the top person.

I was instructed by USASF to deduct when there was no catcher at the top of the head.

Interesting. As the "head and shoulder area" is not defined specifically here, I was going with the clarification that exists multiple other places in the rules that specifies that when catchers are required to protect the head and neck of the top person, they must make contact with the waist to shoulder region of the top person. As there are two catchers who fulfill this requirement, I would have considered the "head and shoulder area" requirement fulfilled. I will ask for clarification - thanks for adding your input.

 

[Kat_E]

Interesting. As the "head and shoulder area" is not defined specifically here, I was going with the clarification that exists multiple other places in the rules that specifies that when catchers are required to protect the head and neck of the top person, they must make contact with the waist to shoulder region of the top person. As there are two catchers who fulfill this requirement, I would have considered the "head and shoulder area" requirement fulfilled. I will ask for clarification - thanks for adding your input.

I was told it could not be compared to the cradle rules because they are actually worded differently to allow a catcher on the side where as the helicopter rule specifically states a position at the head.

Cradle rule
"..with at least one hand/arm supporting the waist to shoulder region to protect the head and shoulder area through the cradle"

Helicopter rule
"...positioned at head and shoulder area of the top person."

 

[SarahS]

I was told it could not be compared to the cradle rules because they are actually worded differently to allow a catcher on the side where as the helicopter rule specifically states a position at the head.

Cradle rule
"..with at least one hand/arm supporting the waist to shoulder region to protect the head and shoulder area through the cradle"

Helicopter rule
"...positioned at head and shoulder area of the top person."

Thanks for providing additional information. I would hope that USASF would define head and shoulder area, because I was actually looking not just at the cradle clarifications, but also downward inversions. If you look at the downward inversion clarifications, they all say that catchers must contact the waist to shoulder region in order to protect the head and shoulders. There isn't any definition anywhere else of what the "head and shoulder area" is. Basically, I would have a hard time doing anything other than warning for this without further clarification, because there isn't guidance about what the head and shoulder area is, other than what I mentioned, and a coach could argue that the head and shoulder area was covered.

I like discussing intricacies of the rules, please don't take this as an argument with you, haha!