International 4.2 at Worlds

[King]

in all honesty i have only heard of the US 4.2... and frankly im not for this division.. its not pushing girls to get better tumbling.. what thay can do full ups but do not need ro bhs layouts.. yes i admit their stunting is phenomenal but i also look toward tumbling....when girls have layouts and place on lvl 4.. but THEY dont have the privelage of going to worlds ... UNFAIR

i think you and lots of people are missing the point. adjusting the scoresheets to not favor tumbling to encourage teams to be competitive at worlds is WORSE to me than creating a division just for those international teams that the US cant enter.

 

[PSS_fan]

i think you and lots of people are missing the point. adjusting the scoresheets to not favor tumbling to encourage teams to be competitive at worlds is WORSE to me than creating a division just for those international teams that the US cant enter.

i agreed with the whole adjusting the scores against tumbling.. i cringe at that idea.. but i withdraw my my previos statement about 4,2 as i know many talented young girls who just cant tumble

 

[Taylor Taryn]

thats for sure something to talk about.. although it would be a good idea and give level 2/3 cheerleaders more oppertunities, it also could be bad. i personally dont think they should make worlds anything but level 5/6. worlds is like the cheerleading olympics it'd be kinda stupid to bring girls without tucks to the milkhouse. maybe a good idea but not worth it.

 

[*Becky*Stars*]

I do understand having an international 4.2 division would have alot of benefits especially for us International countries who arent up to scratch with the tumbling side of things. But i dont think its a good idea.

When i go to worlds at the moment i know that our tumbling isnt up to scratch (we are working on it though, so whatch this space) and we also know that placing in medal position is a dream right now. I do not mind paying to go to worlds and knowing this. Placing in top 10 is amazing for us. My team has a bid to worlds 2012 and we are working our butts off to increase our tumbling scores and feel we are getting closer its just hard without actually training on a sprung floor. Quite alot of our worlds team can actually do the tumble passes that americans can do but we cant put them in the routine because we dont know if they are hittable in a routine when were tired, and cant practice timing. One day this will change. Especially seen as more and more gymnasts are converting over to cheerleading now in the uk, once they have retired from cheer. Although it also gives us hope that if we can increase our scores dramatically in other areas especially choreo, then we can do the same as Bangkok. They got Gold because of their high scores in pyramid etc. They were lacking in tumbles and their lib section wasnt as technical as gym tyme's, but they still managed to do it.

Please let other International teams catch up, yes it will take a long time, but Canada's done it :) Bangkok have got there, and so have other european teams i.e Viqeens (all girl level 6). Until then im happy coming 2nd to american teams and canadian with the hope that one day we will give you a run for your money :)

 

[INeverStopCheering]

So much has been brought up in this thread it's hard to think about it all...
Before I give my opinion, I have a question:
Can an international team enter any division or only the divisions that have international in their name? I got the idea from Kingston that they could enter whatever they wanted. But if it is allowed, why don't they? Why is (for example) Large Senior All Girl 5 an American only division? Is it because of age differences in other countries' divisions? Is it because of the tumbling emphasized scoresheet? I feel like those divisions are kind of...for lack of a better word...false. Like it isn't truly a World Champ trophy if you only competed against American teams.
Anyways...
I have always been in support of an International 4.2. I understand that Worlds is considered a competition for the "elite" cheerleaders, but for some countries, 4.2 might be the best of the best. I think it is a terribly elitist attitude to say that Americans pioneered this sport so everyone else just needs to catch up. Why not catalyze the catch up process by have an intermediate division like 4.2. Other countries do not have the financial or population resources we do. They do not have the coaches or facility to train in that we do. While I think it's an effort I don't like the fact that scoresheets are adjusted to make international teams more competitive, and I feel like this is a much more reasonable solution. To me it lends itself to the overall goal here which I believe is to get more countries around the world to participate in club cheer. I think that an emerging cheer country that does not have the good finances of somewhere else might not send a team all the way to Worlds to lose. Not everyone has that luxury to go just to try their hardest and pray for top ten. So instead they just don't send a team. However, with a 4.2 team these countries could have half a chance to place. It would encourage International participation because it makes there an attainable goal worth sending a team for. I disagree with the statement that there should be a 5 or 6.2. I watched every Intl. team on VOD this year and some of them do not even have a basic grasp of elite stunting. It was scary.
I remember one team specifically: Panyu Middle School (which I think was more high school aged) from China. They would have been a decent 4.2, same thing with South Africa and a team from Chile. I don't understand how you can watch these teams doing level 2 and 3 skills-tumbling and stunts- and think it's a good idea to just throw them in with level 5 cheerleaders. They need a division where they can succeed.

 

[ztaprincess]

So much has been brought up in this thread it's hard to think about it all...
Before I give my opinion, I have a question:
Can an international team enter any division or only the divisions that have international in their name? I got the idea from Kingston that they could enter whatever they wanted. But if it is allowed, why don't they? Why is (for example) Large Senior All Girl 5 an American only division? Is it because of age differences in other countries' divisions? Is it because of the tumbling emphasized scoresheet? I feel like those divisions are kind of...for lack of a better word...false. Like it isn't truly a World Champ trophy if you only competed against American teams.

International teams can compete in any division as long as their bid is in that division and they follow the age and size rules. Looney Dolphins from I believe Germany has entered the Senior Club divisions a few times. Many don't enter them because their age restrictions are different so going into the International divisions is easier to keep their teams the same.

 

[kayemm]

The danger I think you would have with introducing an international 4.2 division is that it would immediately become an "unimportant" division, one that isn't worth hanging around to watch, or it would be put in a separate venue to as not to take time away from the big divisions.
However, I think it's a good idea because it gives international countries where there are more lower level teams than higher levels a chance to go to Worlds and experience it. I'm 20 and probably in my last year of cheerleading since I'm already on a college team and I don't know where to go when I graduate. I will never get to go to Worlds as when I was working my way up through allstar we weren't high level enough for a Worlds bid. So there will be loads of girls my age and older over here who will never get the opportunity to attend Worlds. It's not even like we can go and spectate since it's too far and too expensive to travel. An international 4.2 division allows countries who aren't quite at the Worlds standard to go and experience the event like they ARE a level 5/6 athlete and to watch the big teams that we can only aspire to be as good as one day. It would be a learning experience as well as a competition. Otherwise you're encouraging lower level teams to come to Worlds regardless and trying to throw skills and tumbles that are way too high a level for those athletes.
America needs to accept that we're trying to get to the same level as you but it's a slow process. I've watched the sport grow in Scotland for the past 8 years and I can see huge improvements from when I started cheerleading but we still have so far to go - it isn't going to happen overnight and saying that we need to "try harder" or be "forced" to catch up isn't really fair on us.

 

[kayemm]

Sorry for the double post but I just remembered that @kingston mentioned something about gyms. He's right - we don't have any dedicated cheer gyms in Scotland. I know of a few in England but it's definitely a rarity. Here everyone trains in community halls or council run sports centres which means we are limited in practice times since we need to share the space with other sports and clubs. We can't just go to "open gym" and practice our stunts. We only have set practice times available to us. Maybe when this changes you'll start to see even greater improvements in international cheerleading.

 

[scottish_cheerleader]

You are thinking cutoffs, I am thinking demographics.

The 12-18 demographic is a lot different than the 15-25 demographic. To them their club essentially is 15-25. It is not a straight apples to oranges comparison. It is a whole other philosophy. They are going to have plenty of athletes monetarily self sufficient and possibly having wives and lives stunting with 15 year olds.

We have 12 - 18 year olds who are all still kids. The grouping is what I am more interested in. Why that grouping.

Scotland's age system is wayy worse!! junior is 16 and younger, senior is any age but you must have at least one member over the age of 16... so we have some senior teams here where flyers are peewees being based by people in their late 20's. At a competition this summer I watched a partner stunt duo where the flyer was 14 and the base was 35+, married with a kid.
I think it is a bit ridiculous that in the UK I can't coach at all (not even help) unless I have a full Disclosure(police background check) yet I could be a adult flying a 5 year old....

Sorry for sidetracking but I just wanted to point out we have it weirder than Sweden.

Scotland has a grand total of one level 5 team at the moment! My team and I have heard of one other who are moving from 4 to 5 this season.. so that would give us 3 level 5 teams. That said I wouldn't like a 4.2 at worlds! I get we are way behind tumbling wise, and I understand that most americans think we just need to work harder at it but I can assure you my team work their butts off every single week of the year ... we are getting there ... slowly but still have a long way to go. I feel if there was a 4.2 division it would be a pity division, I would (and have in the past) rather come out and compete in open (international) level 5 and get the place I deserve but enjoy the experience! And maybe one day we will get to see a Scottish team on the podium! ... a girl can dream!

 

[Taylor Taryn]

it'd make more sense to do a level 5.3 division so they could keep worlds more professional

 

[kyyyyyyxo]

I believe we should call this the Kylie division. I am currently on HotCheer's IO4 team and there is a large separation of athletes on this team. It goes from non-tumblers to level 5 tumblers, girls who have only ever stunted high school to girls have have stunted level 6 college stunts. Alot of girls are girls who are usually bases and are not flyers or were flyers and are now basing. Girls that are 16 and girls that are 23. Personally, I have been levels 3, 4, 5, and college and also back in the day on beginner, intermediate, excel, advanced, and elite. After having more ACLs then I can count, I was not ready to just jump back to going full out level 5 or level 6. So I am doing IO4 to get myself back in the game. I still hate tumbling, I block on it and I just dont like it. But the stunting in level 4 is a little lower then what I would like to be doing, because of this I believe that if you were going to create this division for international teams ( who I know are not at the level of US teams, but some are) I would think international 5.2 or 6.2 would be better then 4.2. Stunting is easier to pick up and alot easier to bounce back from injuries, tumbling not so much.

 

[thesneakyANDcount]

you know whos better than a senior 4.2 team? a senior 2 team. no joke.