International 4.2 at Worlds

[KRECCheer]

I don't think that is an option because of the desire to increase people from other countries to participate in Worlds. So the question is what is the lesser of two evils? Have a slanted scoresheet towards just stunting in international, or get rid of international in the open divisions, raise the age to 17+, and have a 4.2 for just the international teams?

Get rid of international in the open divisions. I dont see any other way unless they are stepping up their game to compete with the best of the best.

 

[KRECCheer]

Get rid of international in the open divisions. I dont see any other way unless they are stepping up their game to compete with the best of the best.

Although... I still think stunting is more important in Open 6 divisions.

 

[King]

Although... I still think stunting is more important in Open 6 divisions.

agreed, but worlds score sheets dont reward it the best, i think. there is an OVER emphasis. I like the way varsity has done it. stunting, baskets, and pyramids are a full rubric higher. So all the other stuff matters, with the correct importance on the level 6 scores.

 

[srt418]

I think we should keep the international worlds divisions the same for right now. If we added an international 4.2 division, there would need to be a lot of restrictions. Like what Kingston said about limiting the number of teams that come from that country, for example. I don't like that many restrictions. Also, I think if there was a 4.2 team, only one team from each country should make it to finals.

However, I would like to see a "junior worlds." I'm thinking something more along the lines of a junior olympics. Yes, I know that the cheerleading worlds is NOTHING like the actual olympics and the "junior worlds" wouldn't be like the junior olympics. But it would be our closest version to it. The "junior worlds" would be where I think international teams could catch up. Kind of like an all-levels championship, but one location with international participation for youth and junior levels 1-5 teams. No minis, no tinys. This would better prepare international teams and have all ages use progressions. Maybe the first year just have junior divisions and see how international participation is. Then add youth, if possible.

I feel like lowering the level for worlds would not only make it less prestigious, but also the US would still dominate. Sure, some international teams will still do better as a level 4 or 4.2 team, but look at all the teams that are catching up quickly for level 5 and 6! I think there are going to be just bad countries in general like any other sport. Then there will be really good countries (like the US, Canada, China, etc) that will generally dominate for a while until one country has a burst of talent and dedication.

 

[Rudags]

Make a "stunt group" division or "pyramid group" division for international teams if they just wanna come show off their stunts with level 1/2 tumbling. Have a minute stunt routine and a minute pyramid routine and call it the day. Im with McLovins repsonse on this one though! We need to quit catering to make everyone happy!

 

[King]

Make a "stunt group" division or "pyramid group" division for international teams if they just wanna come show off their stunts with level 1/2 tumbling. Have a minute stunt routine and a minute pyramid routine and call it the day. Im with McLovins repsonse on this one though! We need to quit catering to make everyone happy!

I prefer yours and McLovins stance on catering, but I don't think the USASF will risk cutting out that business. What if Int 4.2 was a temporary stopgap to allow open 5 & 6 to be what they are supposed to be? Would you agree to that?

Cause otherwise I think nothing will change.

( which if you think nothing is broken maybe what you prefer)

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[Rudags]

Kingston - I dont know what a "StopGap" is. But I guess this is my take on international.

I really liked the "Trials", "Prelims", "Finals" - To be honest - I think so many gyms try and have a good international team and it was great to just watch Prelims and finals and have all of the "USA non-top 10" teams already weeded out. I remember a few years ago falling asleep watching some international teams (the one I was on included) - and it was great just watching Top 10 in this division.

I already like the way it is - and I honestly feel like every year more "true" international teams keep getting better and better and closer to the "USA level" of competition. I wish Bangkok (sp?) would have been there this year! I thought they could have won last year based on their Milkhouse performance! I guess I like it as is - and if other countries dont like it - maybe their should be a division for non-usa teams - But then, its not truely "Worlds"

Do you think Gymnastics would start a different division and exclude the US and China?

 

[King]

I guess the thing I dont understand is you said you agree with McLovin and you don't want to cater to international teams ( which would be why you're against my 4.2 idea) but why are you fine with catering to them by adjusting the scoresheet? The only reason it is stunt heavy is because they requested it. Are you only for catering to them if it doesn't create another division?

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[King]

Here is the problem with international., the gap between the top us teams and international teams may have numerically gotten smaller because we altered the scoresheet, but practically the difference is as big as it ever was. Rust had one of its weaker years last year and still got third over all the international teams ( with a dropped stunt mind you) by about 15 points or more. Gt beat us by 15. Bangkok wouldn't have had a chance this year. Their true coed stunts lack, basket wise they would maybe have faired as well as Rust last year ( we were weaker), their execution for other than their pyramids is just ok, and their pyramids aren't legal. If they were a remote any US team would call them out. International all girl and coed 5. Were fiercely competitive for US teams. Was the score gap much different? And all girl 6 has little participation, but I assume GT won by around 50 points. Though I LoVEd watching bangkok 2 years ago and wish they came back this past year, against US teams they don't have a real shot.

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[King]

All stopgap means is a temporary solution to help close a hole or gap in something. So, to stop a gap.

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[Rudags]

I guess the thing I dont understand is you said you agree with McLovin and you don't want to cater to international teams ( which would be why you're against my 4.2 idea) but why are you fine with catering to them by adjusting the scoresheet? The only reason it is stunt heavy is because they requested it. Are you only for catering to them if it doesn't create another division?

Honestly, I just feel like internation level 5 and 6 (Esp. Level 6) are mostly (IMO they all SHOULD BE) college students - And college students should be throwing bigger stunts and pyramids - So I like that there is an emphasis stunts - Just a preference.

 

[King]

Honestly, I just feel like internation level 5 and 6 (Esp. Level 6) are mostly (IMO they all SHOULD BE) college students - And college students should be throwing bigger stunts and pyramids - So I like that there is an emphasis stunts - Just a preference.

I think age should be 17+ for both. Im completely fine with emphasising stunts in 6, but in 5 I still think tumbling should be equal. In practicality though you still need double fulls to win 6.

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[CGAcheer]

with tumbling deemphasized on the scoresheet, what incentive is there for the international teams to improve in that area?

 

[itsgalaxyyyo]

my team has been competing at worlds for serveral years now in international open allgirl 5 were from Scotland i know if it was changed so that no US or Canadian teams were allowed to competed in that division which giving international teams "a chance to win" would suck! it's good to be at worlds and be in the same division as big teams like cheer athletics, rockstar, GT, cea.. it's more to compete against and harder to beat!! international divisions wouldn't be the same without those teams in the division. if this even makes sense.

 

[King]

It makes a lot of sense. Maybe if I explain it a bit further.

I think you take the current 'International' divisions and drop the word International. That word doesnt make sense. International implies that this division is somehow the only place teams not from the US can enter (from what I can tell anyone can enter any division in club). Instead 'International' means we change the scoresheet to fit other countries. So, drop International from I5 and I6 and make them both Open (meaning 17+ for both and you can compete however old you want).

So that would make:

6 Club divisions (12 to 18 limited and any program in the world can enter as long as they get a bid and follow the rules)

4 Open Divisions ( 17+ with normal balanced scoresheets so that the same cheerleading that is encouraged for the first 18 years of life is encouraged here. I dont understand why a double full is 'worthless' once you graduate from high school. a small emphasis on stunts in level 6 is fine, but all out abandonment is stupid)

Where does that leave struggling countries who are NOT competitive at Worlds but we want to encourage them to keep coming (which led us to make extremely crappy changes to the scoresheet)? I say make an 'International' division. 4.2 was just an idea. But it is a farm team division. And, while they would get 'mostly' the same experience (they would be at Worlds but would not leave jostens, they could get a trophy or globe but make it 'different' because it is just an encouragement division) i wouldnt give them all the bells and whistles you get for the ultra competitive divisions. Kinda like how Cheersport used to give jackets to level 5 and wind breakers to all the other levels. Then have the restriction on International 4.2 so that no country with 5 or more teams at worlds could enter I4.2.

Does that mean Scotland, England, Ireland, Norway, or Djibouti could not enter all the highly competitive divisions at worlds and still enter i4.2? No, they are completely allowed to enter. In fact, they could enter 4 teams in the club divisions and have one team in the i4.2. Or all teams in i4.2. Or all teams in Open 6. The key is ONLY small time participants to the competition would be allowed to compete in i4.2 but would NOT be restricted from entering the bigger divisions.

Does that kinda clear things up?