All-Star Limiting Number Of Skills/elements For Level 5 Basket Tosses

[DancerDude0118]

If you tuned into the NACCC general meeting earlier today, there was a heated discussion on whether the number of skills/elements that can be executed in a level 5 basket toss should be limited to just 4, i.e. a maximum of 4 skills/elements such as a switch-kick double or hitch-kick double. Points on both sides include:

For:
Teams wanting to sacrifice form and technique (which leads to a safety issue) to maximize their difficulty.
Easier way for judges to determine what a "high" scoring basket (4 elements) is.

Against:
Limiting creativity
Limits progression from level 5 to 6 basket tosses
Only one team has done a 5 element basket toss the past season, which goes to show that coaches don't need a rule that enforces a limit to know a toss is too difficult

Comments? I, personally, would not want this rule to be enforced. If you can't do a 5 element toss then just don't do it, you don't need a rule to tell you that and at the same time limit the potential of other teams who can.

 

[cheernerd5678]

If only one team did it, and that particular team did it very well, why was this even suggested? It's not like there are abundant injuries from them or coaches are pushing them and it's dangerous. Even the one was obviously done with proper progressions since it started out as a 4 skill basket and became a 5 skill much later in the season. I guess I just don't understand why you would try to make a rule to fix a problem that doesn't exist. There are a million other things they should be worrying about, like convicted sex offenders being able to own gyms/coach, the completely one sided release rule, or maybe making a crossover rule...

 

[12stepCheermom]

If only one team did it, and that particular team did it very well, why was this even suggested? It's not like there are abundant injuries from them or coaches are pushing them and it's dangerous. Even the one was obviously done with proper progressions since it started out as a 4 skill basket and became a 5 skill much later in the season. I guess I just don't understand why you would try to make a rule to fix a problem that doesn't exist. There are a million other things they should be worrying about, like convicted sex offenders being able to own gyms/coach, the completely one sided release rule, or maybe making a crossover rule...

Now now....I think renaming twinkles division to "11 and under Level 5" is a serious issue warranting lots of discussion.

/endsarcasm

 

[JuniorFusionFire]

For me, the evidence isn't strong enough to scream "let's limit the number of basket tosses". I liked what one of the speakers said- let's see the direction it goes, and if it's a problem, then fix it, but now is not the time. This rule proposal seems to be a way for teams that support the new rule to kind of "cheat" (and I use this loosely) into maxing out the scoresheet. There has been no evidence of safety issues/incidents from attempting 5-skill tosses yet (that I heard of). So thus, this issue doesn't quite affect the majority of teams.

And I watched this particular string of the debate- it got Sooooo emotional!

ETA: One speaker (paraphrased): "Well some teams just SHOULDN'T be thowing those tricky baskets..."

Other speaker's retort (paraphrased): "Well some teams shouldn't be throwing backhandsprings and tucks either." [throws hands up in the air with everyone following her]--> this part made my day

 

[Cheeranswers]

i really can't see this making much of a difference? wildcats did switch kick full kick full which is 5 tricks, but other than that, what else can you really do? :confused: they limit the twists to 2.5.. i think there would be a few things cut out with the rule but i don't think it would make a difference to most teams..

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Rampant partying and drinking at Worlds, but hey let's make rules about something that is not actually endangering kid's lives.

 

[WinstonsGirl]

I don't have much to add about the number of skills, but is this really going to limit the progression from level 5 to level 6 baskets?? Being able to switch kick double instead of kick double won't help a lot when you need to rotate. In my mind, the rotational transitions in pyramids, with 1 arm connection is a much better progression for rotational tosses. But again my experience is limited to level 6 only

 

[GreenStormLucy]

I don't have much to add about the number of skills, but is this really going to limit the progression from level 5 to level 6 baskets?? Being able to switch kick double instead of kick double won't help a lot when you need to rotate. In my mind, the rotational transitions in pyramids, with 1 arm connection is a much better progression for rotational tosses. But again my experience is limited to level 6 only

This. A full twisting layout basket is a totally different skill than a kick kick double. Or a hitch kick kick double. Or a twist toe touch double. Limiting skills in level 5 baskets has nothing to do with learning level 6 baskets.
If there's a problem with the execution of L5 baskets, just make the deductions more intense for a bad form.


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[12stepCheermom]

This. A full twisting layout basket is a totally different skill than a kick kick double. Or a hitch kick kick double. Or a twist toe touch double. Limiting skills in level 5 baskets has nothing to do with learning level 6 baskets.
If there's a problem with the execution of L5 baskets, just make the deductions more intense for a bad form.


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I really see level 5 as the terminal level for the vast majority of AS cheerleaders anyway. Sure some cheer in college and some cheer open 6 but that's not a widespread progression. How necessary is it for level 5 baskets to work to a level 6 progression anyway when most cheerleaders won't ever compete level 6 by choice?

Just a thought.

 

[GreatWhite92]

My only problem is that we just now saw a 5 trick basket this past season. Gyms may now think that that is what they have to do to stay ahead and we will start seeing scarier baskets from gyms that already do scary baskets.


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[luv2cheer92]

To be fair that same basket has been done before and it took like 9 years for it to be done again. And there has been a triple kick double been done before as well, so this isn't the first time 5 trick baskets have been done. But I can see how the person/team who did it last season could spark a lot of other teams to follow.

ETA: I guess I should add that I am against this rule until I see major safety concerns. I just wanted to clarify for those who thought a 5 trick basket has only been done once, because it hasn't.
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[DancerDude0118]

i really can't see this making much of a difference? wildcats did switch kick full kick full which is 5 tricks, but other than that, what else can you really do? :confused: they limit the twists to 2.5.. i think there would be a few things cut out with the rule but i don't think it would make a difference to most teams..

I believe the argument against this is that the rule would potentially limit the creativity of basket tosses in the future. Sure, only one person can correctly execute a switch-kick full kick full now, but the idea is to continue seeing growth in this area(basket tosses, which probably has seen the least variation over the years) across all gyms. And if a restriction were to be implemented at this point in time, the ones who feel strongly against it argue that there'll be regrets. They can remove or increase the limit in the future, but those crucial years for potential development would have been lost.

 

[kristenthegreat]

I feel like the problem could be avoided with harsher execution scores. You want to compete a 5 trick basket? Fine, but it better be flawless.

 

[Official OWECheer]

If only one team did it, and that particular team did it very well, why was this even suggested? It's not like there are abundant injuries from them or coaches are pushing them and it's dangerous. Even the one was obviously done with proper progressions since it started out as a 4 skill basket and became a 5 skill much later in the season. I guess I just don't understand why you would try to make a rule to fix a problem that doesn't exist. There are a million other things they should be worrying about, like convicted sex offenders being able to own gyms/coach, the completely one sided release rule, or maybe making a crossover rule...

Rampant partying and drinking at Worlds, but hey let's make rules about something that is not actually endangering kid's lives.

The more I learn, the more I understand BlueCat's frustration.

 

[sophfemme]

I believe the argument against this is that the rule would potentially limit the creativity of basket tosses in the future. Sure, only one person can correctly execute a switch-kick full kick full now, but the idea is to continue seeing growth in this area(basket tosses, which probably has seen the least variation over the years) across all gyms. And if a restriction were to be implemented at this point in time, the ones who feel strongly against it argue that there'll be regrets. They can remove or increase the limit in the future, but those crucial years for potential development would have been lost.

Interestingly enough, another flyer on wildcats has a video up on instagram of her doing the switch kick full kick full. Not as beautiful as Carly's but I'm assuming the flyer was just learning it. Nowhere near bad or anything(it looked pretty safe to my untrained eyes)