All-Star Only Seniors Can Expose Midriff???

[cheercurl]

Finally !!!!
Pharaoh ....." Let my people go!!!"

Umm...is this a good "finally" or a OMG she has lost her rocker? :confused:

 

[kristenthegreat]

You SO nailed this!!! People, look around you. Look outside of cheer. Look how much control you have given up in other areas of your life, just because we all sat around like sheep and accepted it. Prayer in schools, gone. Pledging allegiance to YOUR flag, gone. Laws still getting passed where the public VOTE was 80%+ OPPOSED.

Extreme examples, yes. But the WAY this evolved is the same as what is happening here, in this relatively insignificant situation.

Go ahead USASF, the door has opened and nobody is gonna slam it shut. You know people will b***tch and moan over each of your upcoming dictates, but nobody will really do anything to stop you.

Prayers in school were removed because we are not a religious state, and to give the option 'Either pray or shut up' imposes not only religious views, but one SET of religious views on everyone, despite the fact that we are a religiously-free nation. I went to Catholic school, which was my choice, and therefore I had to CHOOSE not to pray. Last I check we still pledge allegiance (which many people have ruled unconstitutional, which it kinda is), although that bit about 'under God' should go, as it was meant as a smack at Communism and we aren't, as previously stated, a religious state.

Just thought I'd reign that back in before we go too far one way..although I understand your concept and can to a certain extent agree with your points.

 

[Ashley]

This argument isn't about....tumbling easier in a crop or dealing with it. It's simply about about choice. I think deciding that a gym owner can not distinguish what is appropriate is a pretty insulting statement...not sure why more aren't upset about it.

The message I hear from this rule is: You are all idiots and obviously don't know what appropriate is because look at those few dumb bozo's who put that tiny black and pink uniform on the floor. So you are all just going to do it my way...doesn't matter that you weren't the one. You are all going to pay for their mistakes.

This will pass and settle down. Everyone will forget why the crop top issue was such a big deal but know that every time you give up your voice and your choice there is a ripple effect. This handing over free choice will come up again and again. This or other decisions will be up for discussion in a few years. Maybe it will be about NO makeup or maybe it will be only 18 and over can wear a crop top or only white sneakers or whatever else they decide is in the best interest of cheer. I can't just say Okey Dokey...and if you can't understand that then we will never see eye to eye.

I am not asking anyone to reject the USASF ruling....it's a done deal. My hope is that people can see that there was an alternative. It would have put the burden on those who were making poor choices instead of penalizing an entire community. Why is this such a hard concept for others to acknowledge?

I guess I was raised to question the "why" and not blindly follow because "they" said so...I am paying for it cause my children were raised that way too. :p

I am going to try and not comment on this issue. I don't think I have anything else that would add to my point of view. If this makes no sense to you then we are never ever going to come to an agreement any way.

I see your point, I think it's a valid one, but I also think that asking EPs or USASF to put their arbitrary seal of approval on every gym's uniforms will take a whole lot of man-power, time, and money that could be spend doing more important things. EPs aren't going to hand out sanctions because they're tired of arguing with gym owners over what "appropriate" means.

You have to put down guidelines so that you can point to a specific rule and say that's why you got a deduction, not some subjective judges decision about what's appropriate.

College nationals has that part of the scoresheet "collegiate image" and it's VERY hard to police that. What, exactly, does that mean? And what do I have to do to not get the full 10 points on it?

 

[Labegg]

At this point, there is no "official" governing body for cheer, so essentially no one's right to wear a crop top has been taken away. You simply do not have to participate in USASF sanctioned events. That the USASF in the de facto governing body is just the way the cookie crumbles at this point in time, they were first to the game so they get to make the rules. It's all private enterprise at this point...if you want to play at the "country club" than you have to follow the "country club" rules. So until there is an official governing body the point is moot.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

Prayers in school were removed because we are not a religious state, and to give the option 'Either pray or shut up' imposes not only religious views, but one SET of religious views on everyone, despite the fact that we are a religiously-free nation. I went to Catholic school, which was my choice, and therefore I had to CHOOSE not to pray. Last I check we still pledge allegiance (which many people have ruled unconstitutional, which it kinda is), although that bit about 'under God' should go, as it was meant as a smack at Communism and we aren't, as previously stated, a religious state.

Just thought I'd reign that back in before we go too far one way..although I understand your concept and can to a certain extent agree with your points.

I absolutely agree with you. And I deliberately chose a controversial example for exactly this reason. But don't you see, in the Catholic School you could CHOOSE not to pray. Wouldn't that have approach have worked for the public schools too, instead of taking something away from the majority in the interests of the minority who did not want to pray? Pass a law that enforced the rights of individuals to not participate without prejudice instead of forbidding the prayer itself? Do you see the analogy here? Make everyone stop wearing crop tops instead of dealing with the issue of a few abusers.

And if that is controversial, I am probably going to get stoned for this one....I was alive in the 50s, a teen and twenty-something in the radical 60s and 70s, watched the decline of family and the rise of crime in the 80s, 90s and on. And I see the erosion of the moral values in our country that started at the same time the government starting invading personal values and your right to personal choice.

Again, I am not trying to align crop tops with religion. What we are trying to say is that as long as you let people take away your right to choose, the less choice you can expect to have. And the more they will continue to take.

 

[Ashley]

I absolutely agree with you. And I deliberately chose a controversial example for exactly this reason. But don't you see, in the Catholic School you could CHOOSE not to pray. Wouldn't that have approach have worked for the public schools too, instead of taking something away from the majority in the interests of the minority who did not want to pray? Pass a law that enforced the rights of individuals to not participate without prejudice instead of forbidding the prayer itself? Do you see the analogy here? Make everyone stop wearing crop tops instead of dealing with the issue of a few abusers.

Well, no, I don't see the analogy there, because that would be illegal.

 

[Ashley]

At this point, there is no "official" governing body for cheer, so essentially no one's right to wear a crop top has been taken away. You simply do not have to participate in USASF sanctioned events. That the USASF in the de facto governing body is just the way the cookie crumbles at this point in time, they were first to the game so they get to make the rules. It's all private enterprise at this point...if you want to play at the "country club" than you have to follow the "country club" rules. So until there is an official governing body the point is moot.

The same could be said for any sport - what makes USA Gymnastics the official governing body of gymnastics? Or USTA the official governing body of US Gymnastics? How are they any more official then USASF? You don't have to go to USAG or USTA or USGA (golf) events, but if you want to participate in the most prestigious events (nationals for most sports, worlds for us because "nationals" has lost all meaning), you have to follow their rules. I guess I'm not sure what makes one the "official" governing body and how USASF isn't it.

 

[Coach Troy]

Umm...is this a good "finally" or a OMG she has lost her rocker? :confused:

A good "finally" for sure!! I was waiting to hear more people taking this position so we can hopefully make some modifications before 2015

 

[TheUltimateFan]

A good "finally" for sure!! I was waiting to hear more people taking this position so we can hopefully make some modifications before 2015

Nice to hear. The thing is, we know we walk a fine line between getting people to think about this differently and sounding like fanatics. Like cheercurl said before, we can only put it out there for people to think about. Either they 'get it' or they don't. And maybe some don't agree, don't want to have to choose and like having someone force structure around them.

"Crop tops or not" is just a situation that is a symptom of a bigger problem and a future to be wary of. But (and kristenthegreat, this is what I was trying to say in my rambling, babbling way) when the voting process and the opinions of the majority are ignored by the 'governing body (USASF) "government by the people and for the people" becomes government by the dictatorship of a group of individuals based on their own special interests and personal opinions. And stopping that trend once it's established is a lot harder than stopping it before it takes hold.

That being said, I'm going to step away and watch this unfold.

 

[Coach Troy]

We can't just walk away!!
I get it, it's not fun having people beraid you for wanting free choice and turn it into you just "want more skin". And it is very hard to fight a system that has no votes..no checks and balances..and no rivals (I.E.the usasf = monopoly)

I cannot believe that we...the gym owners...just are going to roll over and take this. It will not stop here...there will be more to come if we do not stop this...

 

[CAjessica45]

I think I said something about this in this thread already, but most boys compete in a full top with no cut outs and pants. They seem to tumble and make it through their routine just fine?

Not being rude but if you had kept reading you would see the other couple posts I had and I stated that because I have always worn crop tops, not full tops when I cheer and tumble, that for me the full tops feel restricting. It is just my opinion and I am sticking to it.

 

[kristenthegreat]

I think I see an issue here. People are trying to combine two arguments into one statement, in which people are sorta half-agreeing on everything but nothing has moved forward.

The argument:
'Should or should not we continue to show as much skin as we currently do?'
'Was or was not this the CORRECT way to go about this.'

The first, for me personally, is 'I don't really care.' Crop tops or no crop tops aren't going to make or break the sport for us. If you got in for the fact you can show your stomach, you're in the wrong sport for the wrong reasons.

Number two. Now, that's the rub. On the WHOLE- which means the ENTIRE IMAGE POLICY AND NEW RULES...HEEECK NO! You don't get to just shove all these new rules in without consulting the rest of your members, that's totalitarian and its NOT kosher. Especially since they were a surprise and clearly done in back rooms on the sly. Some of those rules probably could have been voted in by members, and clearly 'someone' has no clue how we work anymore because they're too focused on their collegiate concept.

That being said, I'm about to make a real political leap here and compare this to the new Affordable Care plan. Healthcare, much like uniforms, was an area we talked about on here for AGES- we've had threads on threads about inappropriate uniforms all the time! How often have we discussed the slob-mentality of girls and guys walking around half in uniform, skirt/shirt unzipped, pants sagging, phone hanging out of skirts/pants, all over their boyfriend/girlfriend, etc? But NOBODY was really ever doing anything about it. It was sorta handled at the local level (individual gyms), but it wasn't that consistent and the results were kinda...meh. So they drop this whole bomb of an image policy and we're all freaking out (some parts I think we can agree were a BIT too much). But eventually we mix and mash and we learn what we REALLY want and what people don't care that much about. It's forcing us to pick our battles and actually make a stand. Because let's face it- we as humans don't change until we REALLY have to and ONLY on things we really care about. I just don't see crop tops being one of those things. I can see us whining about it though..until we really aren't that bothered anymore.

 

[gymrat12]

kristenthegreat shimmy x infinty! Which I believe now makes you Queen of the world... :cheering:

 

[MomMomMamaMom]

I think, overall, its safe to say that change is usually not comfortable for everyone, and that it is a healthy practice to question the legitimacy of any changes. In this case, I'm a bit ambivalent though.

I guess it is true that I allow my girls to wear things in Cheer that I wouldn't have them running around in outside of cheer, and I don't have any really good reason to say that their outfits have to be as skimpy as they sometimes are. (ie tumbling, confidence etc). But I really don't have a problem with it. Maybe it's a bit hypocritical, but I definitely think performing is different than real life. I like the crop tops. I like having all the teams have the same uniforms and I'm not really sold on the idea that changing the uniform does much in the way of legitimizing the sport.

If the problem is "sexualization" then I'm not sure this can be done while leaving the senior teams in crop tops. Aside from the obvious fact that the Senior girls are the ones with the actual figures, they are also the ones that most of the outside world will see, and hence become the "image" of cheer anyway. So while I do understand the argument, that littles should maybe stay "little" longer, I am not sure there is much justification for making this an industry rule, as opposed to personal or gym choice.

Personally, I'm not sold on the fact that the performance aspect in cheer is inappropriate. Therefore, it doesn't bother me that the younger girls wear the crop tops too. I think it's cute and sassy, not much more, That being said, I guess I do draw a line somewhere, since I do actually cringe sometimes at competitions,(usually more at the dance moves or music, but still) and almost always at what I see in my limited exposure to child pageants. Because of this, I am aware that the "line" people draw is somewhat personal and I don't see anything wrong with people who don't like the crop tops, that's their line.

What I question most is the haphazard fashion in which there is a over reaching line being drawn. I am not sure I like the blanket argument that we should do this "so other people will like us more". That doesn't sit well with me. I think that not everyone is going to like everything, and I'm not sure who the USASF is trying to please, or that I have any interest in pleasing these unidentified masses.

However, what I do see this rule having the potential for being successful at is opening the doors at the ground level for a wider spectrum of people. I honestly believe that there are more people who not be willing to let their littles out in public in a crop top than there are people who would not do the sport because their kids were too covered up. But, again, I'm not sure it will be a successful business practice, since there is still the exposure of the not covered up Seniors. I'm not sure.....

Also, I am not totally opposed to their being a governing body that makes these decisions so that we don't have to rely on even more subjectivity in judging. While I get the argument that gyms will somewhat naturally regulate themselves, I also don't like the idea of people being penalized for simple things like what they are wearing, etc. So I think a specific set of rules, for all regions, somewhat equalizes the playing field. Lets face it, not all of us know what other regions are like, or think is appropriate, and we might not find out about their preferences until we get there....not that a little research couldn't solve that I suppose.

Like I say, I'm pretty ambivalent. But is interesting to see everyone's opinions on here.

 

[Mom2Cheergirls]

I think the frustrating thing to me is that everyone is saying they had no choice. But if you choose to be a part of USASF as it is then you are saying you understand how they make decisions and you are going to be a part of the organization. Even as a parent I have a choice in what gym I attend, but I do not have a say in the comps we attend or the attire they say is allowed in the gym and if I don't like the choices the gym owner makes I can choose to leave. If you do not like how it is formed then do not be a part of the organization and work an alternative group - as others have said then the action of a free economy will then take effect if enough people (in particular gyms) feel the same. If you do not like how the organization is giving representation and you still wish to be a part of it - then start a thread and work with others to clear a path to work on positive change in that direction.
But to see a group of adults whine that they are being punished and losing their choice when the governing body is making decisions well within the rights of how they were formed and currently functioning is just ridiculous. While some of you may not see a problem with the subset of gyms that feel they are making common sense choices and dressing their young cheerleaders like strippers others do and the USASF addressed in a manner that put clear cut rules on the younger aged athletes. This removes the chance of ambiguity in making rulings of team A versus team B on appropriate uniforms for the younger ages. Could a crop top rule be formed that had length requirements yes - but I get why this rule is made the way it is, just the same way I can see someone who has built a business around a certain look having to make change to something he does not feel is as appealing is incredibly frustrated.
Gym owners and others who are whining about this if you have been a part of the USASF all this time and not taken consistent measures to work on creating a more representative voting process and are just now saying your choice is being taken away then I really have no sympathy for you. They did not come in and change how rules are made. They did not suddenly change the charter and say "this is how rules will be made from now on even though before gyms had representative votes on all our decisions and now we are taking that away". To complain that your rights are now being taken away.. the organization has not changed how it makes rules you just don't like the rules they are making and now want to have your voice not only heard but a vote in the decision.
Personally I feel that a more representative body should exist (to include parents, and older cheerleaders as well) but I get that unless I have taken action to make that change occur then why should I be whining about the choices I have allowed them to make. I also feel there is a problem that is increasing with this subset of gyms and the USASF dealt with it, while I feel there may have been a way to work appropriate crop tops into that solution I also get why they did it the way they did.