All-Star Rule/rubric Changes Hindering Athletes Progression

[Zyylophone]

Im not sure if there is another thread I can refer to to post this question/concern but this is something that has been sitting on my mind for quite some time now and i'm curious to hear others opinions and thoughts!

Often times as a coach, I find myself feeling guilty for the removal of an athlete/group when skills that are performed aren't clean enough for the main stage. I, along with the other coaches, get the typical question from parents asking why the child was removed from a certain section and to which i explain that the skill(s) they're performing aren't being executed and i try to help them understand that it will give the athlete more breathing time and energy for their other sections to perform. I then justify myself that we can sacrifice a few athletes for numbers sake and still be in the desired range while saving execution/technique scores.

I found myself looking back at previous years in cheerleading and miss seeing all these kids doing jumps (and they werent terrible either), putting up max number of stunts/baskets, and tumbling passes. Those athletes that may be struggling in a certain section really had no choice but to progress and work their skills because they HAD to do it for the score sheet. There were no room for sacrifices. Which then progressed them later down the road moving up in the level system in which the section they struggled with the most, wasn't as hard as before because they were in that section previously and worked every practice to improve.

There is then provided the option for the removed athletes to come to open gyms, privates, clinics, ect. to work on their skills, but there are parents who honestly can barely afford the monthly tuition already or live too far away and aren't willing or able to come to the gym for only an hour.

I understand the importance of safety was prevalent during the time of these score/rubric changes and im all for it!! I would love to hear others opinion and experiences regarding these changes!

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Question I ask myself as a HS coach when kids do not make my team and I tell them to work and come back next year:

Are we sort of "pricing kids out" when they are not the kid whose mom can always run her to open gyms, take privates, etc. to work on the thing that she is removed from?

Are we creating an environment that only nurtures or caters to those who are either naturally talented (and are going to get the skills either way) or able to pay to do the work?

Because "the work is worth it", but in cheer the work costs time and money.

 

[alpaca]

As a parent I understand the need to hit the scoresheet and only put your best technique on the floor, but I can also see how it comes at the expense of some kids progression. And I feel frustration at that.

CP struggles with tumbling. So she is not in any running tumbling in her routine. Because practices at this point in the season are all routine based, and not skill building, she gets zero tumbling practice unless I drive to and pay for privates/open gyms on days other than scheduled practice days. With other kids in the family and other obligations, it isn't always easy to fit these in. We also live no where near the gym so that's a factor as well. Meanwhile, the kids already with their tumbling skills, get to practice it during every full out.

I am aware of how it works but surprisingly, in lower level cheer, many parents are completely unaware. I have heard numerous times 'they tumble during practice' But there is huge difference a kid throwing what they have and a kid needing a spot/instruction. Parents may see some other kids tumbling and assume that their less skilled kid is receiving instruction off to the side. Nope, that rarely is happening. Your kid without tumbling is standing there doing nothing, or is told to stretch. So the good get better, and the others......

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

I notice that just like there is an achievement gap in schools, there is kind of a tumbling gap in kids, caused by lots of factors, but mostly the economic kind.

Athletes tend to fall into 2 categories.

Category A:

*Somehow gets skills between practice and open gym.
*Maybe cheers HS and gets extra gym time there but not much.
*Has a home situation that is not super conducive to doing a ton of extras to get tumbling (live far from the gym, lots of school activities, another sport, parents who work crazy hours so they're lucky to get a ride to practice, limited money and lucky to just be able to afford cheer at all.)


Category B:

*Has 2 teams worth of team tumbling every week. Even if not required. Before practice.
*Has 2 privates per week.
* Goes to open gym 2 hours before practice.
*Takes additional tumbling private at gymnastics facility across town that costs twice as much as previous 2.
*Has favourable home situation conducive to extras (one parent is either a SAHM or has flexible hours to drop kid at these things, only sport is cheer, financially doing well that a $x00/hour gym private at Elite Gymmastics is no big deal, limited siblings, possibly homeschooled or likely has parents who can pick up or drop off early from school.)

Look at these 2 kids and tell me which is most likely going to make a Worlds team or high level team?

Even if they both made it (maybe Cat A got on because she is a beast base or they put her on bc she managed to some minimum L5 tumbling), which one is going to have issues keeping up and not being moved to S4?

Category A. But by no fault of her own. She's not less talented. She just doesn't have the $ or resources to put in work like B does.

Many kids fall BETWEEN A and B. Like, their parents can afford the occasional private or class.

The B kids are not everyone. But they repesent a lot of what I think the industry focuses on and gyms gravitate toward.

(Sidenote: we see this a lot with HS too. Look at where the top HS cheer schools in your state are located and what type of income/home life/access to classes/privates those kids have.)

 

[Lisa Seye]

I notice that just like there is an achievement gap in schools, there is kind of a tumbling gap in kids, caused by lots of factors, but mostly the economic kind.

Athletes tend to fall into 2 categories.

Category A:

*Somehow gets skills between practice and open gym.
*Maybe cheers HS and gets extra gym time there but not much.
*Has a home situation that is not super conducive to doing a ton of extras to get tumbling (live far from the gym, lots of school activities, another sport, parents who work crazy hours so they're lucky to get a ride to practice, limited money and lucky to just be able to afford cheer at all.)


Category B:

*Has 2 teams worth of team tumbling every week. Even if not required. Before practice.
*Has 2 privates per week.
* Goes to open gym 2 hours before practice.
*Takes additional tumbling private at gymnastics facility across town that costs twice as much as previous 2.
*Has favourable home situation conducive to extras (one parent is either a SAHM or has flexible hours to drop kid at these things, only sport is cheer, financially doing well that a $x00/hour gym private at Elite Gymmastics is no big deal, limited siblings, possibly homeschooled or likely has parents who can pick up or drop off early from school.)

Look at these 2 kids and tell me which is most likely going to make a Worlds team or high level team?

Even if they both made it (maybe Cat A got on because she is a beast base or they put her on bc she managed to some minimum L5 tumbling), which one is going to have issues keeping up and not being moved to S4?

Category A. But by no fault of her own. She's not less talented. She just doesn't have the $ or resources to put in work like B does.

Many kids fall BETWEEN A and B. Like, their parents can afford the occasional private or class.

The B kids are not everyone. But they repesent a lot of what I think the industry focuses on and gyms gravitate toward.

(Sidenote: we see this a lot with HS too. Look at where the top HS cheer schools in your state are located and what type of income/home life/access to classes/privates those kids have.)

Count my kid as A. Wishes she could be on worlds team but struggles to maintain r5 skills as we just cant afford extras and she only gets to tumble once a week for 30 minutes if even that much.

 

[Zyylophone]

I notice that just like there is an achievement gap in schools, there is kind of a tumbling gap in kids, caused by lots of factors, but mostly the economic kind.

Athletes tend to fall into 2 categories.

Category A:

*Somehow gets skills between practice and open gym.
*Maybe cheers HS and gets extra gym time there but not much.
*Has a home situation that is not super conducive to doing a ton of extras to get tumbling (live far from the gym, lots of school activities, another sport, parents who work crazy hours so they're lucky to get a ride to practice, limited money and lucky to just be able to afford cheer at all.)


Category B:

*Has 2 teams worth of team tumbling every week. Even if not required. Before practice.
*Has 2 privates per week.
* Goes to open gym 2 hours before practice.
*Takes additional tumbling private at gymnastics facility across town that costs twice as much as previous 2.
*Has favourable home situation conducive to extras (one parent is either a SAHM or has flexible hours to drop kid at these things, only sport is cheer, financially doing well that a $x00/hour gym private at Elite Gymmastics is no big deal, limited siblings, possibly homeschooled or likely has parents who can pick up or drop off early from school.)

Look at these 2 kids and tell me which is most likely going to make a Worlds team or high level team?

Even if they both made it (maybe Cat A got on because she is a beast base or they put her on bc she managed to some minimum L5 tumbling), which one is going to have issues keeping up and not being moved to S4?

Category A. But by no fault of her own. She's not less talented. She just doesn't have the $ or resources to put in work like B does.

Many kids fall BETWEEN A and B. Like, their parents can afford the occasional private or class.

The B kids are not everyone. But they repesent a lot of what I think the industry focuses on and gyms gravitate toward.

(Sidenote: we see this a lot with HS too. Look at where the top HS cheer schools in your state are located and what type of income/home life/access to classes/privates those kids have.)

I completely agree!!
As a coach, do you think with this rubric change has had an effect on not assisting athlete(s) A in gaining or maintain their skills during practice times? No reps are being repeated during practice because maybe that athlete has been removed from the section so she/he can no longer work on perfecting the skill to help with technique. It's "so much easier" to just remove the athletes that struggle and only perform those that are executing the skills simply because we have numbers to remove the athlete and still maintain our difficulty score but drive execution. We accommodate so much to the scoresheet that often times, the only times the athlete that was struggling on that skill could work on the skill was at practice during that section. If that makes sense hahaha sometimes i ramble on a lot..... too much.

 

[emo_wifey]

As a parent I understand the need to hit the scoresheet and only put your best technique on the floor, but I can also see how it comes at the expense of some kids progression. And I feel frustration at that.

CP struggles with tumbling. So she is not in any running tumbling in her routine. Because practices at this point in the season are all routine based, and not skill building, she gets zero tumbling practice unless I drive to and pay for privates/open gyms on days other than scheduled practice days. With other kids in the family and other obligations, it isn't always easy to fit these in. We also live no where near the gym so that's a factor as well. Meanwhile, the kids already with their tumbling skills, get to practice it during every full out.

I am aware of how it works but surprisingly, in lower level cheer, many parents are completely unaware. I have heard numerous times 'they tumble during practice' But there is huge difference a kid throwing what they have and a kid needing a spot/instruction. Parents may see some other kids tumbling and assume that their less skilled kid is receiving instruction off to the side. Nope, that rarely is happening. Your kid without tumbling is standing there doing nothing, or is told to stretch. So the good get better, and the others......

This is a problem for my CP as well. On top of that, even when she goes to tumbling class she only gets in a one hour class about five-ten minutes with the coach to spot her in skills she can't work on her own. We've only recently been able to do biweekly privates but she is not a natural tumbler and in her fourth season is still trying to get her BWO.

I don't know of a solution but I share your frustration.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[ScottyB]

but in cheer the work costs time and money.

Same with a lot of things we all deal with in the rest of our lives unfortunately.

I totally get what you are saying though, tryouts breaks my heart every year.

 

[Keep_Believing]

I think it's all about balance. It seems Cheer tends to go to one extreme or the other.

The trend I have noticed now is to have the tumblers with great technique tumble repeatedly through out the routine (since run tumbling is cumulative). It seems injuries have not decreased. They seem about the same to me.

 

[quitthedrama]

I feel like the new score sheet gives benefit to those who may not have all of the skills needed for a level (and I'm not in agreement). With today's score sheet, an athlete can excel in one or two areas of the routine and be placed at a level higher than what their overall skills may be. I saw a video of a team that had at least an extra stunt group just standing during stunts, and many of those kids didn't tumble either, and overall execution wasn't great, yet the team had over a 98 raw. It just seems that the score sheet is going in the wrong direction and raw scores are even more inconsistent than they used to be.

 

[Keep_Believing]

Although scores aren't consistent, for the most part placement is usually consistent.

 

[Natalia5]

Although scores aren't consistent, for the most part placement is usually consistent.

I would say that placement is somewhat consistent at least at my kid's gym. I think coaches in general should really consider what the total package of the skill set instead of most of someone who has most of it KWIM for example a kid who just got their level 3 tumbling skills I mean just got them before try outs but their level 2 skills are perfected. IMO the kid is a strong 2 there fore I would place them at level 2 but most gyms would more than likely push that kid to level 3 with sketchy level 3 skills which will result in little to no tumbling in the routine. Their morale begin to slip because they don't feel as useful to that team, it's a domino effect that can be totally avoided by either having cuts or just be realistic about the talent pool. I also think that there should be a "blind" judging process at try outs. Just bring in people who has never seen these kids before (fresh eyes) that are only looking at the skills they are throwing during the try out. Each athlete is given a number that is attached to their information form that is sealed until after the tryout process. That way a rough grouping by age and skill level is sorted from the try out results and handed over to the coaches who then match the numbers to the names and create their teams from there. A blind process should remove the heart string tug of "Oh well, I know he/she can do that skill" or " X is having a bad day but I know they can do it" "He/she was on our very first team" etc.

 

[Keep_Believing]

I know one gym that told parents and athletes prior to tryouts that all decisions would be based on Coaches' brains (hitting the scoresheet) and not Coaches' hearts. Some kids were moved down levels, some were unhappy with placement and left, and some didn't make a team.

 

[CLynn]

Same with a lot of things we all deal with in the rest of our lives unfortunately.

Yup, no question.

Our gym does a pretty good job keeping those differences to a minimum. They only allow tumbling at the gym, so nobody is running to another gymnastics place. And the only tumbling they offer are classes, no privates allowed. With fairly reasonable pricing for those classes the opportunity to advance skills is not so geared toward one group...at our previous gym some parents had standing privates 3 times/week with prices ranging from $60-$100 per private!

 

[Keep_Believing]

I mentioned it in the other thread, but groups A & B will even out in college where doubles are not allowed. If CP has r5 tumbling and strong flying or basing skills they will have opportunities to do well in college cheer.