All-Star Sandbagging Karma

[CheerBank]

Wow, I agree with everything you wrote and all I can add is PREACH!! I think as spectators, many of us are so passive aggressive... On the one hand, we complain about the cheating, but we are waiting for someone else to make a ruling to stop it..... I think we collectively can do something about it... For example, if you know that level5 athletes are accepting awards, banners and trophies for a level 2,,, why should we be clapping and hooting and hollering...we collectively, should be silent or hissing/booing... Mind you, we are not booing the athletes themselves, but the fact they can cheat another group who worked hard and played by the rules....Like I said earlier, if level 4-5 athletes are used to crossover into a lower level, that lower level team should be spotted maybe 3 or 4 points for each level5 or level 4 athlete crossing down to level 1 or level 2, this I think will equalized everything and cut down on teams sandbagging,,,there is no incentive left in doing this if they have to pony up points...;)

In my perfect world, I'd like to see a rule stating that Worlds team athletes cannot cross over to other teams unless it is another level 5 team. I know this would hurt many small gyms, including my own, but it is something I feel strongly about. I also do not think a Worlds team should ever be allowed to compete as Restricted once they have their bid.
I'd like to see something in place specifically stating how many levels other non-level 5 athletes are allowed to crossover to (in my head I am thinking 2 levels max). In this way we are not seeing a kid on both Mini 2 and Junior 5.
In the scenario you mentioned above, what if that level 4/5 athlete is not a level 4/5 in all areas - what if for example they are on that higher team because they are a beast base, but their tumbling is more akin to a level 2/3? In that situation should the level 2 team be penalized for using that athlete? The level 4/5 team is already somewhat being penalized because they are not getting points for tumbling from one of their athletes they chose to put on the mat. Just curious about your take on this.

 

[Ld3319]

The other thing I have noticed with the gym that has extremely high number of crossovers. Those poor children have that KT tape all over them and braces on either ankles or knees or both. I think as a parent I would have to call it quits, but shame on those coaches for allowing this. Just my opinion

 

[Mom2Cheergirls]

I think moving down a level after your first comp and you see your team is not ready is one thing. Moving down before the last chance to a Summit bid for your gym is a whole other. Filling in because of injury again another - pulling a kid that has given it her all all season and was put on the level 2 team because you want a Summit bid and CP on level 3 could do it - not cool in my book at that level this is about the girls learning and developing their sport as a team and if that kid is giving her all then she deserves her spot but if said kid is missing because she skips practice for unexcused reasons well then perhaps? I get this not being illegal because there are certain scenarios where people are being honest and doing what is right for the kids but then there are those that are doing it for the wrong reasons as well. I will never forget riding on the tram at Dallas to get our car and these older girls were talking to my mini 2 bragging about being a great level 4 but coming to compete as level 3 and planning to win the whole thing because of it..She looked at them and said why would you ever want to do that? They just looked stunned. So proud of my kid that moment.

 

[BigBow]

I would 100% love some sort of sandbagging rule, but there are just so many "what if" situations that makes it seem impossible to implement.

 

[Pebbles49]

In my perfect world, I'd like to see a rule stating that Worlds team athletes cannot cross over to other teams unless it is another level 5 team. I know this would hurt many small gyms, including my own, but it is something I feel strongly about. I also do not think a Worlds team should ever be allowed to compete as Restricted once they have their bid.
I'd like to see something in place specifically stating how many levels other non-level 5 athletes are allowed to crossover to (in my head I am thinking 2 levels max). In this way we are not seeing a kid on both Mini 2 and Junior 5.
In the scenario you mentioned above, what if that level 4/5 athlete is not a level 4/5 in all areas - what if for example they are on that higher team because they are a beast base, but their tumbling is more akin to a level 2/3? In that situation should the level 2 team be penalized for using that athlete? The level 4/5 team is already somewhat being penalized because they are not getting points for tumbling from one of their athletes they chose to put on the mat. Just curious about your take on this.

Hey CheerBank,

That is it! Are we really sick of seeing higher level athletes crossing over to level 1 and level 2 teams are here we go again being all wishy-washy on the topic... Let's be honest, in all the scenario I read posted, never once did anybody complained and talked about that level 5 or level 4 athlete only being good in one aspect of the scoresheet, but all the complaints have been these athletes being an awesome team and cheating... I suggested an viable way to even the playing field for lower level teams and now, we want to piecemeal the areas these higher level athletes are equal in skill. As a new comer to this sport, I understand clearly why we have this widespread cheating going on in cheerleading... because we complain about the problem and when suggestions are made to remedy the problem, then we start talking out of the other side of our necks... and justifying why a higher level athletes are used and then talk about the small gym that have no other alternatives, etc... For the life of me, when someone suggest given an handicap to the lower level teams because higher level athletes are crossing over... then we need to piecemeal how unfair this could be on the level 5 or level 4 athletes... I am just confused, again, are we sick of the uneven playing field or are we content just wanting to sit around and talking about it to death...If we are still in the talking stage on this matter I think, I will come back for the resolution session because I am sick of talking and beating this dead horse... :deadhorse::confused:

 

[CheerMomNTx]

I do not see a problem with a limited number of crossovers to a team above or below that athletes actual level. Will those 5 athletes make that big of an impact on that team of 20? No, not really. Scoresheets are based on percentages of the entire team performing certain skills. Sandbagging an entire team, yes big problem and rules should be implemented.

 

[CheerBank]

Hey CheerBank,

That is it! Are we really sick of seeing higher level athletes crossing over to level 1 and level 2 teams are here we go again being all wishy-washy on the topic... Let's be honest, in all the scenario I read posted, never once did anybody complained and talked about that level 5 or level 4 athlete only being good in one aspect of the scoresheet, but all the complaints have been these athletes being an awesome team and cheating... I suggested an viable way to even the playing field for lower level teams and now, we want to piecemeal the areas these higher level athletes are equal in skill. As a new comer to this sport, I understand clearly why we have this widespread cheating going on in cheerleading... because we complain about the problem and when suggestions are made to remedy the problem, then we start talking out of the other side of our necks... and justifying why a higher level athletes are used and then talk about the small gym that have no other alternatives, etc... For the life of me, when someone suggest given an handicap to the lower level teams because higher level athletes are crossing over... then we need to piecemeal how unfair this could be on the level 5 or level 4 athletes... I am just confused, again, are we sick of the uneven playing field or are we content just wanting to sit around and talking about it to death...If we are still in the talking stage on this matter I think, I will come back for the resolution session because I am sick of talking and beating this dead horse... :deadhorse::confused:

I'm not sure why it is never addressed as a rule. Put it to bed either way, and then there can actually be some repercussions against those gyms who violate it. I fully understand where your suggestion was coming from and in no way was I shooting it down, I just wanted your opinion on that specific scenario.

 

[311cheermom]

No crossing over period should be a USASF rule. The only real way to stop sandbagging. Just my opinion, of course... Not very popular, I'm sure. Half our gym's kids are crossovers, my cp included. CP knows I feel that way, but cheer is her life, and all.
I guess I should add that our gym is small and has so many crossovers to make more teams, not to sandbag!
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[Tator tots]

So you all agree, it's okay for a level 1/2/3/4 to flip to a 5 but a 5 to a lower level is considered taboo? I get that someone without level 5 skills can be an asset to a level 5 team, but why can't a 5 to move to lower level without ramifications and be considered an asset too?

For the record, I believe each athlete should be level appropriate....but I do understand cheer has it's challenges with this (and the wishy washy rules that allow all this nonsense).

 

[Pebbles49]

I'm not sure why it is never addressed as a rule. Put it to bed either way, and then there can actually be some repercussions against those gyms who violate it. I fully understand where your suggestion was coming from and in no way was I shooting it down, I just wanted your opinion on that specific scenario.

Hey CheerBank, I am sorry if my post came off strong, but I am coming from that camp of thinkers, who feel like cheerleading can be a viable and important sport that need to work out some kinks, one of these will be sandbagging... In every new sport DNA was the recognition and legalities of each level of play... Just like in Basketball and Baseball, no sane player in the Major leagues will want to sneak onto a Minor league team and in gymnastics there are standards for each level and when you reach level 10 or the Elite level, heck no, will you step in on a level 5 team in gymnastics . But our level 5 athletes, who are at the top of the cheerleading World (no pun intended) will walk out and pretend to be a novice in the sport... No other acknowledge sport out there will conceived of doing this and this is setting us back tremendously...Just only saying!

 

[311cheermom]

The whole topic is interesting to me. My cp's Y3 team started out with less than half the team having all their L3 tumbling skills, and I thought they were doomed. They have ended up 1st in all but one comp. when they came in 2nd, and have won all 3 nationals they've attended. Now probably only 80% of the kids have all their L3 skills.We have competed and beat teams that were obviously stacked with L4 or over tumblers...Proof that it takes more than a sandbagged team to win!!!

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[Official OWECheer]

"Stick around after Worlds, headed to the Summit
turn that level 5 into a 3, yeah we up and done it."

 

[Official OWECheer]

This is SO TRUE.

I've taught privates to girls who were working fulls and doubles for college.

Put a gun to their heads and ask them to BWO, they'd be DEAD.

It's hilarious.

This is why I'm big with my little kids on making sure they're good with walkovers before we BHS.

But shouldn't kids be warming up EVERYTHING (from a forward roll onward) at every practice? Might slow things down a little bit, but it'll pay off in the long run.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

In theory. Not everyone is as progression-focused as other gyms are and you can DEFINITELY tell who started a BHS without a BWO.

I'm a big proponent of the fact that cheer does NOT start at Level 2. Those Level 1 skills are so important.

I've taken it all the way back to a BWO with some athletes because the lack of BWO was a contributing factor to how terrible their BHS was.

 

[cheernerd5678]

So you all agree, it's okay for a level 1/2/3/4 to flip to a 5 but a 5 to a lower level is considered taboo? I get that someone without level 5 skills can be an asset to a level 5 team, but why can't a 5 to move to lower level without ramifications and be considered an asset too?

For the record, I believe each athlete should be level appropriate....but I do understand cheer has it's challenges with this (and the wishy washy rules that allow all this nonsense).

Just like 8 year olds can be on a junior team but 15 year olds can't. Someone crossing from level 3 to level 5 because they're a good flyer is one thing. If they're a level 3 athlete then you're going to now have to teach them to fly at that level (new stuff), and their tumbling obviously isn't giving you an advantage. Whereas a level 5 athlete having to only perform simple libs and passes they've had for years, that's a considerable advantage. One person? Eh, not that big of a deal, but if there are multiple girls doing it..... Crossing a bunch of lower level tumblers up to stunt isn't really something people do, because it gives them a huuuuge disadvantage in tumbling quantity. But if you're bringing a bunch of people down who can do that level's passes easily, it gives you a huge advantage.
I personally think you should only get to cross one level. 3 to 4 or whatever, only one level difference, and there should be a limit on those. If you're jumping more than that.... You're probably giving one of your teams a pretty big advantage.


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