High School Scoresheet Questions

[Tealxblack25]

Hello all,

We had our first competition yesterday and I just have a million score sheet questions and I was thinking this could be a good thread for interpretations and questions of what things might mean on a score sheet.

No one wants to be that coach that walks up to a judge and questions them, but sometimes a little clarification is nice.

Here we go !

My two questions I have are:


1. What consists of "Difficult Motions" - What certain motions are considered difficult ?


2. A comment in the comments section says for our dance add formation changes to add visuals. We change our dance formation 3 times from start to finish. Can anyone offer some insight ?

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Are you changing LEVELS in your dance? Judges don't want you to just change formations, but have level changes as well.

 

[Tealxblack25]

Are you changing LEVELS in your dance? Judges don't want you to just change formations, but have level changes as well.

Yes we are
We have girls on the floor, while others are up.
Then we have a stunt in the back.. girls on the floor, on their knees.

 

[marissa.d]

Depending on the level of the team, by "difficult motions" I find they typically mean more intricate footwork and a faster flow of motions that are different from the standard motions (e.g. high v)

 

[AScheer]

In addition to what others have said... Difficult motions could mean the whole team shouldn't be doing the same thing the whole dance. It could also mean add ripples. Or if you have a dance full of t's and high/ low v's, then switch it up. Hard to comment without seeing a video!

You could also make the formation changes creative. Are they walking to a new spot or doing something to get there? Are they complex changes or just a simple move?

 

[Jessica Lynn]

Hello all,

We had our first competition yesterday and I just have a million score sheet questions and I was thinking this could be a good thread for interpretations and questions of what things might mean on a score sheet.

No one wants to be that coach that walks up to a judge and questions them, but sometimes a little clarification is nice.

Here we go !

My two questions I have are:


1. What consists of "Difficult Motions" - What certain motions are considered difficult ?


2. A comment in the comments section says for our dance add formation changes to add visuals. We change our dance formation 3 times from start to finish. Can anyone offer some insight ?

Just a comment on the dance. For a 6 8-count dance I usually have 5-7 formation changes of some kind. A judge wants to see a dance that moves, that has frequent level changes and has partner work. Depending on the length of your dance, 3 formation changes will look very stationary to a judge.

 

[klynn64]

We attended NCA last weekend. Our performance was at the end of the day. Following the release of the Day 1 scores the second place team in our division complained about their score to the judges. When he made the complaint I don't know. May have been late Day 1 or early Day 2. I'm assuming they felt their Raw Score was too low but it could have been an execution score issue. They had no deductions. Many people noticed the team had a few touches in tumbling and a few bobbles, and an omission. In our uneducated opinion they were given a gift in the score they received. Nonetheless, I guess the complaint spawned a re-examination of the team's routine. Following awards we learned that the second place team had their Day 1 score changed. They received two points in deductions for Day 1 whereas they originally had zero. At awards I got the impression the team was unaware of the deductions since they were incensed at getting second place. The coach would already know the outcome of his complaint prior to awards, wouldn't he? When a complaint is lodged with the judges do they usually make the determination right then? And does this situation occur frequently where a coach complains about a low score and actually receives an additional deduction? When a Day 1 complaint is lodged, do the Day 1 judges deal with the complaint? Even if the complaint is lodged on Day 2? I'm just curious since I've never ran into this situation before.

 

[cupieqt]

We attended NCA last weekend. Our performance was at the end of the day. Following the release of the Day 1 scores the second place team in our division complained about their score to the judges. When he made the complaint I don't know. May have been late Day 1 or early Day 2. I'm assuming they felt their Raw Score was too low but it could have been an execution score issue. They had no deductions. Many people noticed the team had a few touches in tumbling and a few bobbles, and an omission. In our uneducated opinion they were given a gift in the score they received. Nonetheless, I guess the complaint spawned a re-examination of the team's routine. Following awards we learned that the second place team had their Day 1 score changed. They received two points in deductions for Day 1 whereas they originally had zero. At awards I got the impression the team was unaware of the deductions since they were incensed at getting second place. The coach would already know the outcome of his complaint prior to awards, wouldn't he? When a complaint is lodged with the judges do they usually make the determination right then? And does this situation occur frequently where a coach complains about a low score and actually receives an additional deduction? When a Day 1 complaint is lodged, do the Day 1 judges deal with the complaint? Even if the complaint is lodged on Day 2? I'm just curious since I've never ran into this situation before.

At most events challenges can take a while so it's usually not determined on the spot. And yes the reviewing committee will let you know either by text or they'll ask you to return and discuss the challenge and their ruling so the only way he would not have known their ruling is if he did not return to discuss it with them.
If you challenge your scores then the reviewing committee can assess any deductions they may have originally missed. The reviewing committee will consult the judges that scored the team and the head judge on that panel would have to ok any changes.
Most events have a short time frame (about 15 minutes typically) to challenge anything whether it's scores or deductions. It varies from event to event but usually this time begins as soon as the scores are released from the panel. So I doubt he was able to successfully challenge anything outside of this time frame but that's not impossible I suppose. If he conducted himself in an unprofessional manner while challenging or trying to challenge, he could have gotten an unsportsmanlike deduction which can be pretty heavy (4 points typically).

The only scores you can challenge are difficulty scores. They will not discuss technique or creativity scores at all.

Hope that helps clear up some of your questions!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cheer Dad]

@klynn64 it is also possible the other team felt they should win regardless of the new score deductions that were added.


** I don't always cite facts but when I do I make them up**

 

[klynn64]

At most events challenges can take a while so it's usually not determined on the spot. And yes the reviewing committee will let you know either by text or they'll ask you to return and discuss the challenge and their ruling so the only way he would not have known their ruling is if he did not return to discuss it with them.
If you challenge your scores then the reviewing committee can assess any deductions they may have originally missed. The reviewing committee will consult the judges that scored the team and the head judge on that panel would have to ok any changes.
Most events have a short time frame (about 15 minutes typically) to challenge anything whether it's scores or deductions. It varies from event to event but usually this time begins as soon as the scores are released from the panel. So I doubt he was able to successfully challenge anything outside of this time frame but that's not impossible I suppose. If he conducted himself in an unprofessional manner while challenging or trying to challenge, he could have gotten an unsportsmanlike deduction which can be pretty heavy (4 points typically).

The only scores you can challenge are difficulty scores. They will not discuss technique or creativity scores at all.

Hope that helps clear up some of your questions!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It does, thank you. This experience tells me you better be pretty confident you were underscored if you're going to challenge the judges. It's like opening up Pandora's Box. Not only are you challenging the judges but you subject your routine to re-evaluation. Two points in missed deductions seems to be an awful lot of deductions for the judges to initially miss. I was told that it wasn't for a safety deduction that they received the two point deduction, rather it was deductions resulting from touches etc. Their Raw Score never did change.

 

[klynn64]

@klynn64 it is also possible the other team felt they should win regardless of the new score deductions that were added.


** I don't always cite facts but when I do I make them up**

It's entirely possible. But with the new deductions the first place team was ahead by almost three points following Day 1 and they had a higher Raw Score with a near perfect routine on Day 2.. The second place team likewise had a near perfect routine Day 2 but no increase in difficulty. So they still had a lower Raw Score. It all just seemed odd which is why I had to defer to the expert advice on the Fierceboard.

Based on what everyone has said regarding judging. And since it's NCA which I find to be pretty credible. I'm inclined to believe the coach must have known. But, I don't think he told his athletes or parents.

 

[jessicastuart]

Lol this is my favorite. I feel your pain. These scores for me are so inconsistent at different comps/different panels. Here is the NYS rubric for motions when it comes to difficulty.. Maybe it'll explain what they could be looking for at other comps:


http://www.section6.e1b.org/cms/lib...n/49/NYSPHSAA Cheerleading Rubric 2015-16.pdf

 

[Tealxblack25]

I seriously am having the hardest time getting videos of my teams routines but we had a comp on sunday and now I am even MORE confused lol

Last weekend when we didn't hit out pyramid and it looked like crap we had a 9/10 on difficulty.
Yesterday we hit our pyramid only a few tiny things and we got a 7.4 / 10 lol

 

[CheerItFullOut]

I seriously am having the hardest time getting videos of my teams routines but we had a comp on sunday and now I am even MORE confused lol

Last weekend when we didn't hit out pyramid and it looked like crap we had a 9/10 on difficulty.
Yesterday we hit our pyramid only a few tiny things and we got a 7.4 / 10 lol

Oh wow... Hate when stuff like this happens

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I seriously am having the hardest time getting videos of my teams routines but we had a comp on sunday and now I am even MORE confused lol

Last weekend when we didn't hit out pyramid and it looked like crap we had a 9/10 on difficulty.
Yesterday we hit our pyramid only a few tiny things and we got a 7.4 / 10 lol

My first response to this is: Was it the same scoring system?

My second response is: If it's the same scoring system, I would be incensed. The execution of a skill does not change the difficulty of the skill. They should be separate entities. The only exception is if the skill is not identifiable because the execution is so poor. If that's the case, the team should not get credit for having the skill in their routine. Example: Team A has 5 stunt groups, 4 of the groups perform full up stretches perfectly, while the 5th group leaves the ground and crashes on the way up. The team should not get credit for that 5th stunt. The judges should not assume that it was a full up stretch.

We were at a MAJOR all star competition about seven or eight years ago, and one of the well-knowns in the all star industry performed a pyramid that, after all the crashes, ended up being 3 prep-level stunts staring at each other wondering what happened. None of the skills were identifiable except those three prep-level stunts. They somehow, miraculously scored in the 9's on difficulty. How do three prep-level stunts score in the 9's in all star level 5?????