OT Should Parents Have A Say In Whether Or Not They Vaccinate Their Children?

[cheer25mom]

When you say "baby" with measles, how old was the baby? What year was this? Are you in the US?

An 11 month old I the mid 1990s in Texas. Big hospital, modern care, 14 days in ICU. I went out with my mom to help with the other kids. It was a horrible feeling watching him suffer and not being able to do anything. All they could do was try to keep his temp down and manage the other symptoms. Mostly organ failure due to the toxins. He pulled through, but has long term kidney issues as a result.


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[nicolee]

@nicole it's really ok. I can tell you feel strongly about it and that's fine. I am very confident in my research and my decision and don't take it personally.

I agree that an immune system being exposed to germs makes it stronger. It's the other stuff they put in the vaccines that concerns me. Show me a long term safety and efficacy study not funded in some way by a pharmaceutical company and I could maybe see your point.

Well okay but I wasn't apologizing at all, rather putting a general disclaimer in case I start to sound like a b!tch. In fact, I'm genuinely angry at some of these dangerous ideas. I'm all for freedom of beliefs, but your views could honestly be debunked in five minutes by anyone with a basic knowledge of immunology.

As for safety studies, go for your life.
Efficacy, safety and immunogenicity of heptavalent pneumococ... : The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal
Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases
JAMA Network | JAMA Pediatrics | Safety of the Trivalent Inactivated Influenza Vaccine Among Children: A Population-Based Study
Comparison of the Efficacy and Safety of Live Attenuated Col... : The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal

 

[cheer25mom]

@nicole it's really ok. I can tell you feel strongly about it and that's fine. I am very confident in my research and my decision and don't take it personally.

I agree that an immune system being exposed to germs makes it stronger. It's the other stuff they put in the vaccines that concerns me. Show me a long term safety and efficacy study not funded in some way by a pharmaceutical company and I could maybe see your point.

No one without some connection has the money for these studies, and all the money in the world won't change the science. T doesn't matter who funded to study if the methodology is sound. They will have the same result no matter where the money cones from. The methodology is what you have to look at when evaluating the validity of any research, along with the statistical reliability of the data collected.


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[SheCheers]

@nicole I didn't think you were apologizing, I was merely reassuring you that you're condescending tone that you were stating concern about, wasn't apparent to me.

It really all boils down to what You Or I are willing to believe after we have digested all the facts as presented. Just because I have come to a different conclusion for myself doesn't mean I'm dangerous.

It doesn't change the fact that a parent should have a choice. I'm sorry you are so concerned with my "ideas". What exactly have I stated as fact that is really an idea needing debunked? Most everything seemed pretty clear that I was stating my opinions for my own family based on my own research.

I was hoping for long term studies, but here is a fact, from about October of 2000 til about June of 2011 I gathered data on every vaccine preventable illness with current rates of incidents, mortality rates, long term damage. I put it in a spreadsheet. I then compiled a spreadsheet with the list of all vaccine ingredients. I then researched risks of exposure to those things. I came to my own conclusion.

I'm not willy nilly putting my children at risk, I assure you. Nor am I unintelligent. I use logic in all of my decisions. I weigh the risks and benefits. I've come to a different conclusion than you have. I wish it didn't cause you so much stress

 

[cheer25mom]

It should cause everyone stress, because what one parent decides has the potential to effect every child they come into contact with.

As for debunking, I think at least in thing she was talking about is the idea the all of these diseases are easily treatable with antibiotics, they just aren't. Many are viral, and have high incidence of long term complications.


All due respect, but one spreadsheet just wouldn't trump the volumes of research out there for me. I have participated in vaccine research myself as part of my undergrad in biochemistry, and there is much more to valid science reaching valid conclusions than just spreadsheeting data. You have to fully understand what the data is or is not telling you, how it was collected, and what the collection criteria were for one. Also, when and how the data overlap. Incidence data right now really isn't telling us much in this country because she have such a high vaccine compliance rate. You only have the luxury of reaching those conclusions because everyone else vaccinates. If everyone looked at it the way you do, the numbers would tell a very different story.


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[Eyes On The Prize]

Fallacies. Fallacies everywhere. We have an outbreak here and there is no cure. How do we protect the children?

 

[shawtyyBHADDx3]

So my favorite show, law and order svu brought this up again and it just made me all upset and got me thinking. I understand everyone has their choice, but I don't want my hypothetical child to suffer for your choices. Seeing all of this playing out in real life and in shows, I'm actually terrified for when I do have a child.


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[cheer25mom]

So my favorite show, law and order svu brought this up again and it just made me all upset and got me thinking. I understand everyone has their choice, but I don't want my hypothetical child to suffer for your choices. Seeing all of this playing out in real life and in shows, I'm actually terrified for when I do have a child.


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That is the crux of this discussion and why so many people feel so passionately about it. We don't make these choices in a vacuum. What we choose for our children has the potential to effect every other child they come into contact with, and on a larger scale, our choices en masse effect everyone's children.


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[vegas_cheermom]

My thoughts/questions - this may be a dumb question, but if the majority of kids are vaccinated, how are the ones who aren't putting other kids at risk? Aren't the only ones at risk those that willfully chose not to be vaccinated? Like if 95 kids are vacinnated against the measels, and 5 chose not to get the vaccine, then one of the 5 gets measles, wouldn't the 95 kids be safe and the only ones at risk 4 other non-vacinnated ones?

These parents that claim religious beliefs about why they refuse to vacinatte - do they still go ahead and give their kid penicillin when they get an ear infection? I just think there's got to be a lot of hypocrisy in making such a claim and I don't think I could lie about something like that (lying about my religious beliefs - just seems way too wrong to me). Personally, I think I'd just send my kids to a private school or homeschool before I'd lie for 12 years like that.

I vacinnated my kids, but I do understand both sides of the debate. Until they can fully explain the reasons behind the increase in autism diagnoses in recent years, I can see why people are nervous.

Just speaking to the increase in autism diagnoses: I feel like if your kid is at all delayed, or different, doctors are diagnosing them as being on the spectrum. Now the spectrum is so wide we probably all fit on it. About 10 years ago, the diagnosis of the hour was ADHD. Every kid had adhd. Well some of them were just 5 year old excited kids.
I work in adolescent and adult mental health and development disabilities field. In my opinion, helicopter parenting is a big reason for the increase in diagnosis. Little Johnny isn't reading by 3 like the neighbor? Oh it must be because he's on the spectrum.... Or at least that's what I've been seeing over the past 8 years.
. (This is not to say that there aren't children with clear needs and diagnoses. I work with these awesome folks everyday, and I know the struggles and the joys. )

 

[vegas_cheermom]

Oh and personal anecdote to add. When my oldest was in the third grade (2012), she caught whooping cough. She was fully vaccinated, but her booster wasn't scheduled until 2014, so there was a gap in her immunity I guess. (Supposedly most kids have this gap, as the booster isn't recommended until 5th grade?)
I did not know what was wrong with her, but when you hear your child literally GASPING for air, and the strangled, barking cough? Helpless and horrified doesn't even begin to describe it. And we're talking about an 80 pound 3rd grader. Can you imagine it on an infant?
Apparently several students at the school got it that month, and it was traced back to one unvaccinated child.
So my thing is, if you're not going to vaccinate your children, at least keep them home when they are sick with communicable illnesses. Isn't that what we should do when any child is sick?

 

[njallday]

Just speaking to the increase in autism diagnoses: I feel like if your kid is at all delayed, or different, doctors are diagnosing them as being on the spectrum. Now the spectrum is so wide we probably all fit on it. About 10 years ago, the diagnosis of the hour was ADHD. Every kid had adhd. Well some of them were just 5 year old excited kids.
I work in adolescent and adult mental health and development disabilities field. In my opinion, helicopter parenting is a big reason for the increase in diagnosis. Little Johnny isn't reading by 3 like the neighbor? Oh it must be because he's on the spectrum.... Or at least that's what I've been seeing over the past 8 years.
. (This is not to say that there aren't children with clear needs and diagnoses. I work with these awesome folks everyday, and I know the struggles and the joys. )

According to the new DSM-V, I am on the spectrum because I sort my M&M's by color and line them up prior to eating them. Seriously. I am not trying to be funny or make light of an autism diagnosis, but IMO it is slightly over diagnosed. I have worked respite for some families with children with autism who will probably never progress above a 5 year old's intellectual ability and desperately needed the help.. and you're telling me because I sort my food by color I am on the spectrum and deserve the same services/budget/IEP in school for extra help? that's nutty.. and probably a conversation for another thread so I'll stop.

 

[nicolee]

@nicole I didn't think you were apologizing, I was merely reassuring you that you're condescending tone that you were stating concern about, wasn't apparent to me.

It really all boils down to what You Or I are willing to believe after we have digested all the facts as presented. Just because I have come to a different conclusion for myself doesn't mean I'm dangerous.

It doesn't change the fact that a parent should have a choice. I'm sorry you are so concerned with my "ideas". What exactly have I stated as fact that is really an idea needing debunked? Most everything seemed pretty clear that I was stating my opinions for my own family based on my own research.

I was hoping for long term studies, but here is a fact, from about October of 2000 til about June of 2011 I gathered data on every vaccine preventable illness with current rates of incidents, mortality rates, long term damage. I put it in a spreadsheet. I then compiled a spreadsheet with the list of all vaccine ingredients. I then researched risks of exposure to those things. I came to my own conclusion.

I'm not willy nilly putting my children at risk, I assure you. Nor am I unintelligent. I use logic in all of my decisions. I weigh the risks and benefits. I've come to a different conclusion than you have. I wish it didn't cause you so much stress

I just take issue with people basing their beliefs about vaccination on things that are 100% wrong scientifically. What you were saying about babies not being able to cope with vaccines, about zero cases of diptheria, about certain viruses having an easy cure – these are all incorrect based on the scientific data. There's more to research than collecting things and making spreadsheets, you have to look at epidemiology, current scientific facts, where the research was published, etc.

Again, it's very difficult to say this without sounding cocky, but as someone with formal studies in science, it's hard to see someone be misguided. Of course it causes me stress that people are putting their child and the wider community at risk by not vaccinating. It's even worse when these decisions are based on myths.

 

[dawgshow]

According to the new DSM-V, I am on the spectrum because I sort my M&M's by color and line them up prior to eating them. Seriously. I am not trying to be funny or make light of an autism diagnosis, but IMO it is slightly over diagnosed. I have worked respite for some families with children with autism who will probably never progress above a 5 year old's intellectual ability and desperately needed the help.. and you're telling me because I sort my food by color I am on the spectrum and deserve the same services/budget/IEP in school for extra help? that's nutty.. and probably a conversation for another thread so I'll stop.

If we were different parents and had chosen to get our son tested when he was younger, I guarantee that he would have been dx on the spectrum. It's a bit crazy.

 

[cheer25mom]

If we were different parents and had chosen to get our son tested when he was younger, I guarantee that he would have been dx on the spectrum. It's a bit crazy.

I should be "on the spectrum" too. Someone upthread mentioned sorting. I was the child sorting toys by color and size constantly. I had issues with sock seams, any lace on clothing, and a host of other things that just "bothered me" and I wouldn't wear them. I am still like that to a degree.


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[SL&AM]

I should be "on the spectrum" too. Someone upthread mentioned sorting. I was the child sorting toys by color and size constantly. I had issues with sock seams, any lace on clothing, and a host of other things that just "bothered me" and I wouldn't wear them. I am still like that to a degree.


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That's not necessarily spectrum though---sorting is a classic OCD symptom and things that bother you also fall into sensory processing. Autism is largely a social disorder and it's comorbid with a lot of other disorders that all tend to get clumped together under the umbrella of "Autism Spectrum" when they're actually picked apart and diagnosed separately. Most people just say my child is Autistic and that ends a conversation/questions very quickly because of it's implied social context.