All-Star Who Is Liable?

[MissBee]

Even if the parents tried to sue the gym, the gym would be able to provide a copy of the signed release of liability/assumption of risk waiver for that athlete. Unless the parent's attorney can prove that the coach/gym was grossly negligent they're probably safe. To prove gross negligence they'd have to have not taught the skill at all, or allowing the athlete to attempt the skill in a dangerous place (ie, off the edge of the floor onto concrete).

 

[Jillian]

I've been hurt countless times in the gym. Have I ever wanted to sue the gym? No!

 

[srt418]

I'm curious, does this gym have a lot of "mental" tumblers? If the coaches have to overspot, then do those kids end up relying on a spot even more so than gyms that have a normal spotting rule?

 

[soFIERCE08]

as an athlete i have had multiple times where i went for a skill, freaked and landed flat on my back/neck. did it hurt? oh yes it did. but it was still my fault. it was a skill that i was capable of doing, i just messed up. and i would never say that that's was my coach's fault.

however, lets say the athlete is unsure on a skill- poor technique, lack of strength, lack of energy etc. and the coach pushes them to do the skill even though they may not be completely ready yet, then it is the coach's mistake.

 

[cheersafety]

Even if the parents tried to sue the gym, the gym would be able to provide a copy of the signed release of liability/assumption of risk waiver for that athlete. Unless the parent's attorney can prove that the coach/gym was grossly negligent they're probably safe. To prove gross negligence they'd have to have not taught the skill at all, or allowing the athlete to attempt the skill in a dangerous place (ie, off the edge of the floor onto concrete).

I would disagree. I have been an expert in 23 cheer injury cases both for injured cheerleaders and coaches. A coach has a duty to an athlete to do what a reasonable person would do in that same situation. So to prove gross negligence is not as simple as not doing just one thing or another. As far as waiver each state is different and each waiver has it's own verbiage and would have to be looked at individually. If gross negligence is proven it supersedes a waiver, assumption of risk or government immunity.

And NOT spotting could be negligence or even gross negligence depending on the facts.

Learning by crashing and burning is RIDICULOUS and UNSAFE. Athletes should take calculated, reasonable risks to obtain their goals.

 

[Jennaw]

I would disagree. I have been an expert in 23 cheer injury cases both for injured cheerleaders and coaches. A coach has a duty to an athlete to do what a reasonable person would do in that same situation. So to prove gross negligence is not as simple as not doing just one thing or another. As far as waiver each state is different and each waiver has it's own verbiage and would have to be looked at individually. If gross negligence is proven it supersedes a waiver, assumption of risk or government immunity.

And NOT spotting could be negligence or even gross negligence depending on the facts.

Learning by crashing and burning is RIDICULOUS and UNSAFE. Athletes should take calculated, reasonable risks to obtain their goals.

Which brings me to the next question, should the gym owner hold the coach liable for refusing that spot?

 

[Jennaw]

I'm curious, does this gym have a lot of "mental" tumblers? If the coaches have to overspot, then do those kids end up relying on a spot even more so than gyms that have a normal spotting rule?

The gym has some of the best tumbling I have seen in years. The child being mental about a skill eventually gets tired of not moving forward. And attempts (and gets) the skill. The parents never complain about overspotting because if they did, they would be the ones neglecting their child's safety. I personally agree and adopted this method of over spotting, it might not be as quick, but it guarantees that I, as a coach, am taking every safety precaution I can. Plus the childs skill technique ends up looking 100% better.
As a coach, if a child got hurt on a skill that I refused to spot, I would hold myself liable.

 

[ohhh lindss]

I didn't read the rest of the thread, but I say it's the athletes fault. Because if a coach can tell that the athlete can easily do the skill by his or herself, then the athlete should trust his or her coach and know that they can do it without a spot or their coach "just being there." Although, I do believe that if the coach notices that they aren't going to stick it, then they should step in for a little bit of help.

 

[Jennaw]

I've been hurt countless times in the gym. Have I ever wanted to sue the gym? No!

That's not the issue being discussed.

 

[cheermomfootball]

I can say without a doubt that Waivers are not meant to exempt gyms, coaches, and cheer companies from accountability in willful neglect, blatant bullying by staff, turning the back on severe problems that put the athletes at risk, abuse [including physical over exertion], forcing an athlete to do skills they have not perfected resulting in injury, and a disregard for the overall safety of the athlete. The Waiver is meant to limit frivolous civil complaints for when an athlete does get injured but it was a true accident and all measures had been taken to make it as safe as possible, and for when parents don't like something in a gym.

 

[Rudags]

Question - I have little background in gymnastics (Coached levels 1-4) and it was at a small gym. I have been told that gymnasts learn their advanced skills on tumble track and when it is perfected - they just go to the floor and put a sting mat down. Is that true? Ive been told most gymnastics coaches dont spot at all. If that is the case - I feel that 'coaches judgement' should be in place for this. If this is NOT the case - I still stand by it should be the coaches call on when an athlete is ready. There are several "tricks in the book" to get an athlete confident. With Backhandspring I use a "rapid fire" technique. If somoene ready to do it by themself, I tell them I am going to build indurance by having them do it three times right in a row by themselves. The third one I dont spot and its generally sucessful. I dont think a gym should be held liable. However, if an athlete is just completely set that they need another spot, I will spot (lightly). If a coach is teaching a full for the first time and they do it good once and then say GO! I think the coach should be liable. In our accident reports we have to fill out at our gym - We have to explain what level the kid is, what skill they were doing, and how long they have been doing that skill, etc!

 

[tumbleyoda]

@Rudags - it depends on the philosophy of the gym, the equipment availible in the facility, the training of the coach, the level and years experience of the gymnast and since you are asking about gymnastics the event they are coaching as to whether they spot or not. Gymnastics uses so many more drills before skills, body position drills to create muscle memory, repetitions of parts of a skill before attempting the entire skills, and conditioning that is both general and specific to the skill the gymnast is working on. Compulsory routines demand a certain set of skill progressions along with a set score before the athlete can be promoted to the next level. All of this lessens the need for spotting as much on most of the skills that we use in cheerleading.

The trampoline to tumble track to rod floor or pit to floor transition is commonly done without spot. Again the type of equipment and knowing how to use it greatly lessens the need for a spot. The primary purpose is for the gymnast to learn spatial awareness and know what they are doing in the air. They learn how to open their eyes and see (also called spot) certain things instead of just feeling it or throwing it. The fear of falling is usually minmized due to early training. First thing a gymnast learns how to do is fall. The secondary purpose is to build confidence in doing the skill by themselves.

 

[MissBee]

@Rudags - it depends on the philosophy of the gym, the equipment availible in the facility, the training of the coach, the level and years experience of the gymnast and since you are asking about gymnastics the event they are coaching as to whether they spot or not. Gymnastics uses so many more drills before skills, body position drills to create muscle memory, repetitions of parts of a skill before attempting the entire skills, and conditioning that is both general and specific to the skill the gymnast is working on. Compulsory routines demand a certain set of skill progressions along with a set score before the athlete can be promoted to the next level. All of this lessens the need for spotting as much on most of the skills that we use in cheerleading.

The trampoline to tumble track to rod floor or pit to floor transition is commonly done without spot. Again the type of equipment and knowing how to use it greatly lessens the need for a spot. The primary purpose is for the gymnast to learn spatial awareness and know what they are doing in the air. They learn how to open their eyes and see (also called spot) certain things instead of just feeling it or throwing it. The fear of falling is usually minmized due to early training. First thing a gymnast learns how to do is fall. The secondary purpose is to build confidence in doing the skill by themselves.

Exactly.
@Rudags
As a gymnastics coach, I tried to avoid using the tumbl trak and trampolines as much as possible. The timing required for the tumbl trak is very different from that needed on a spring floor, so I try to avoid it. It gives the gymnast a false sense of ability level with a skill. I prefer to use progressions using stacked panel mats and inclines. I try to be as hands off as possible, to avoid the reliance on a spotter (ie: getting mental). In 17 years of gymnastics coaching, I have never once spotted a full. It is the one skill that I teach in a series of progressions on the trampoline (not the tumbl trak).

 

[Fameous MOM]

Our coaches spot until they are confident the person can land the skill successfully. Then they still follow the person's pass just in case they freak out in the air. I know my cp's tumble coach got tired of spotting her full but did not ever complain.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Exactly.
@Rudags
As a gymnastics coach, I tried to avoid using the tumbl trak and trampolines as much as possible. The timing required for the tumbl trak is very different from that needed on a spring floor, so I try to avoid it. It gives the gymnast a false sense of ability level with a skill. I prefer to use progressions using stacked panel mats and inclines. I try to be as hands off as possible, to avoid the reliance on a spotter (ie: getting mental). In 17 years of gymnastics coaching, I have never once spotted a full. It is the one skill that I teach in a series of progressions on the trampoline (not the tumbl trak).

@MissBee - I am glad you said that. Most fulls and double fulls now I dont teach with spotting but like you use my gymnastic background to teach it patiently until they get it. Thankfully I am not rushed by other coaches to hurry up and get them the skill now so I can be patient and teach them correctly, This is something that many cheerleading coaches who just have a cheerleading background don't understand and think that you are scared to spot an athlete or incapable of it. By the time they get to the floor maybe a couple of spots and that is usually it. Of course I take it on a case by case basis and if an athlete is having some challenges I will spot them as needed. But they are also instructed to take a step back and work on the skill somewhere in the gym by themselves with me watching to regain their confidence.

I will ban a child from tumble track or trampoline for awhile if I observe it being used as a crutch or it has messed with their technique. I strictly use it to introduce a skill or skill set - like BHS x 2 Full or a flyspring/bounder, get a certain amount of repetitions, as an alternative for minor injury issues, or conditoning. Once they get the concept they are transitioned off and onto the rod floor, air track or floor. I prefer an air track because you can inflate or deflate it to the level the athlete truly needs and still watch safety issues.

Now back in the ancient days...lol...we primarily tumbled up onto raised surfaces; either 4 or 8 inchers. Either that or non spring mats. We also learned how to mark our tumbling so we hit the same spot every time which made it possible to do this, or to tumble into a pit if we were lucky enough to be at a gym that had one. Being that I had started tumbling outside way before I actually took gymnastics any mats were great for me. I still use that tumble up onto a higher surface technique. Works wonders.