All-Star Why Does This Continue To Happen?

[catlady]

When I say it, I mean that I KNOW that half of that team also competes on level 4 or 5. Ideally, anyone competing level 2 should have all their level 2 skills, and be working towards level 3. By the end of the season many of them will have some or all of those skills. But, a kid that has solid level 4 skills and has been competing them all season has no business also competing level 2.

I'm definitely not doubting you but, how does that work if they get a Summit bid for both teams? Supposedly an athlete can only cross up or down 1 level and they have to keep 75% of their roster after they receive their bid. Are they just declining the one they feel they have less of a chance of winning? Are they choosing specific Summit eligible teams and eliminating others from the running? Or, are they just that lousy and their higher levels can only win lower level comps?

 

[omgitssydthekid]

I'm definitely not doubting you but, how does that work if they get a Summit bid for both teams? Supposedly an athlete can only cross up or down 1 level and they have to keep 75% of their roster after they receive their bid. Are they just declining the one they feel they have less of a chance of winning? Are they choosing specific Summit eligible teams and eliminating others from the running? Or, are they just that lousy and their higher levels can only win lower level comps?

Her post is very similar to my experience. The team I referred to earlier has solid level 2/3 athletes on their level 1 team, solid level 3/4/5 athletes on their level 2 team, and solid level 5 athletes in their level 4 team (but this one doesn't bother me very much since there are only a couple of those kids on the team and that is their highest level). This is a D2 gym, and D2 Summit doesn't have the same crossover rules as D1 Summit. About half of their athletes crossover to another team in the gym.


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[cheer25mom]

I'm definitely not doubting you but, how does that work if they get a Summit bid for both teams? Supposedly an athlete can only cross up or down 1 level and they have to keep 75% of their roster after they receive their bid. Are they just declining the one they feel they have less of a chance of winning? Are they choosing specific Summit eligible teams and eliminating others from the running? Or, are they just that lousy and their higher levels can only win lower level comps?

They often cannot get a bid on the higher level, or if both bid they split the crossovers between the 2 teams, then advertise for new athletes to fill those spots. With 50% crossing 25% got to one team, 25% to the other and they fill in the gaps. Usually though, they are counting on just the lower level team bidding.


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[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Parents upset gym owner didn't pay cheerleading competition fees | WSB-TV

Being a good cheerleading coach does not make one a savvy business owner any more than one could expect Sam Walton to teach tumbling.

 

[catlady]

They often cannot get a bid on the higher level, or if both bid they split the crossovers between the 2 teams, then advertise for new athletes to fill those spots. With 50% crossing 25% got to one team, 25% to the other and they fill in the gaps. Usually though, they are counting on just the lower level team bidding. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let's say they have 28 on each team with 14 crossovers doing both and 14 on each team that only do one level. If they split a bid they would have to keep their original 14 + the 7 crossovers (split between the two teams) which would equate to 75% of their original roster on each level. Technically, they shouldn't be able to fill anyone in with the new rules and have to stick with the roster of now 21 and hope they don't lose anyone. I don't doubt you at all but, I truly don't see how this would benefit a team with the new rules, they would have to rework the whole routine.
As far as level 4 & 5 athletes on level 1 & 2 teams, IMO that's like getting excited over your HS kid winning a elementary school spelling bee.

Her post is very similar to my experience. The team I referred to earlier has solid level 2/3 athletes on their level 1 team, solid level 3/4/5 athletes on their level 2 team, and solid level 5 athletes in their level 4 team (but this one doesn't bother me very much since there are only a couple of those kids on the team and that is their highest level). This is a D2 gym, and D2 Summit doesn't have the same crossover rules as D1 Summit. About half of their athletes crossover to another team in the gym.
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Unfortunately, I can see this happening often on D2 with the multi-level crossover rules.

 

[5-6-7-8]

...
As far as level 4 & 5 athletes on level 1 & 2 teams, IMO that's like getting excited over your HS kid winning a elementary school spelling bee.

I get excited when I kick butt at kid Jeopardy.:p

 

[momof1cheer]

,,


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[Pebbles49]

As far as level 4 & 5 athletes on level 1 & 2 teams, IMO that's like getting excited over your HS kid winning a elementary school spelling bee.



Unfortunately, I can see this happening often on D2 with the multi-level crossover rules.

Tbh @catlady, unfortunately these athletes are getting excited because prizes are the same and they are able to win so much easier...

I really wished that some of these national cheerleading competitions can make prizes less identical...Maybe if NCA made their jackets like karate...White jackets for level 1 and Black jackets for level 5 or something like that... I think those upper level wouldn't want to walk around with those jackets because everyone will know... But if everybody win the same prize, why not sandbag, a win is still a win!

 

[cheer25mom]

Let's say they have 28 on each team with 14 crossovers doing both and 14 on each team that only do one level. If they split a bid they would have to keep their original 14 + the 7 crossovers (split between the two teams) which would equate to 75% of their original roster on each level. Technically, they shouldn't be able to fill anyone in with the new rules and have to stick with the roster of now 21 and hope they don't lose anyone. I don't doubt you at all but, I truly don't see how this would benefit a team with the new rules, they would have to rework the whole routine.
As far as level 4 & 5 athletes on level 1 & 2 teams, IMO that's like getting excited over your HS kid winning a elementary school spelling bee.



Unfortunately, I can see this happening often on D2 with the multi-level crossover rules.

Like i said, most of the time they only get a bid with the lower level team, and don't care because they can say they are "going to summit"

On the rare occasion that they DO bid both teams, they recruit kids from other gyms after their season is done. You can have 25% roster change, so they should be able to fill in all of those spots. 50% crossovers is the max you can do this with and still be able to fill in all your spots with new athletes. from the summit website:

"You MUST compete with the number of athletes that you qualify with. You can compete with less as long as it keeps you in the same division. You will only be able to replace 25% of your roster from the time you received your bid until you compete at The Summit. Example: A team of 20 competes and receives a bids, they can only replace 5 athletes at the time of The Summit competition."

Believe me, teams do the math of this, I know of some in our area how roster with this in mind every year. Our season is over after next weekend. Many gyms are already done for the season. They can get the kids they need and have time to work them in. It is definitely happening. I saw an ad yesterday on Facebook for summit fill ins. I saw one last week from a big name program that does exactly what I am talking about. They have crossovers that cannot compete on both teams.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Tbh @catlady, unfortunately these athletes are getting excited because prizes are the same and they are able to win so much easier...

I really wished that some of these national cheerleading competitions can make prizes less identical...Maybe if NCA made their jackets like karate...White jackets for level 1 and Black jackets for level 5 or something like that... I think those upper level wouldn't want to walk around with those jackets because everyone will know... But if everybody win the same prize, why not sandbag, a win is still a win!

You may be on to something.

It's pretty sickening across the board. The things kids take "pride" in are a shame. National championship jackets on kids who are competing 3 or 4 levels below their ability are an embarrassment in a so-called competitive environment. There are coaches who encourage it as well. There is solid research to show that the concept of the participation award, trophies for coming in last, trophies/jackets won in lesser divisions are more damaging to the psyche than losing. This generation of kids is the first generation in history to have less self-esteem/self-worth than the generations before them. The science links some (not all, mind you, but some) of this to these false awards. Why? Because the kids aren't stupid, and they know they didn't deserve the award.

I know this is the all star thread, but I see coaches at the high school level doing the same thing. They come back from competitions and convince their athletic directors to make multiple announcements about placements in pathetically weak divisions. When you win 3rd place in a division that only has one good team, that's not accomplishing much. Especially if the top two teams in the state compete against each other and one eliminates the other in the regional feeder comp.

It's shameful. Athletic activities used to be about developing life skills. Then they became focused on winning to the detriment of character. Then it became about winning, even if it involved cheating, just as long as you won. Now we've passed that to this era of "just win," cheat, compete in a lesser division, use kids who belong to other programs to bolster your team, put kids on your team who are aged out, do whatever it takes, as long as you WIN. That's all that matters. It's a pathetic way for adults to behave, and it's a sad set of lessons that these kids are learning. What's worse is that coaches continue to do it because of the percentage of parents who support it. They may not actively come out in support of it, but they are passively supporting it by allowing their kids to continue to participate.

 

[Nikki Moore]

Not All Star either but non-CP is in softball. Girls can usually play 4 seasons and then have to move up a level. In the fall of what is technically your last season, a lot of girls will go ahead and move up to the next level since Spring is actually the competitive season. So you could have a team of girls on one team who've played a full 3-4 seasons against a team of beginners to that level.
It was non-CPs maybe second season in her level and they played a team of newly moved up girls and you could really see the difference in size so it didn't feel all that great to beat them.

This happens a lot in Travel ball - generally they should be moving to the next level in the Fall, but some teams will continue in their same level just to get the wins in the fall season. Really annoying and it doesn't help the girls get any better. But hey - trophies!

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Not All Star either but non-CP is in softball. Girls can usually play 4 seasons and then have to move up a level. In the fall of what is technically your last season, a lot of girls will go ahead and move up to the next level since Spring is actually the competitive season. So you could have a team of girls on one team who've played a full 3-4 seasons against a team of beginners to that level.
It was non-CPs maybe second season in her level and they played a team of newly moved up girls and you could really see the difference in size so it didn't feel all that great to beat them.

This happens a lot in Travel ball - generally they should be moving to the next level in the Fall, but some teams will continue in their same level just to get the wins in the fall season. Really annoying and it doesn't help the girls get any better. But hey - trophies!

My experience coaching travel baseball 15 years ago was that teams were separated by age, and each age had a division 13-under, 14-under, etc. Programs that had multiple teams could keep the same core group of kids together for years and they were very successful. That's ultimately the way it should be, though. Sometimes those programs would take losses in younger age groups knowing that the athletic development would occur. This was especially true when they would place players who would were only "age eligible" by a week or a month. By the time those kids go to be in the upper age levels they would be unstoppable, even if they had struggled in their 10s and 11s.

 

[Nikki Moore]

My experience coaching travel baseball 15 years ago was that teams were separated by age, and each age had a division 13-under, 14-under, etc. Programs that had multiple teams could keep the same core group of kids together for years and they were very successful. That's ultimately the way it should be, though. Sometimes those programs would take losses in younger age groups knowing that the athletic development would occur. This was especially true when they would place players who would were only "age eligible" by a week or a month. By the time those kids go to be in the upper age levels they would be unstoppable, even if they had struggled in their 10s and 11s.

The way I see it in SB is you have 18U, 16U, 14U, etc..
And most teams have girls with a birth year that are the same so they can move up together. And the teams that had to move to 12U in the spring would still play 10U in the fall to get easy wins against teams that might be an 8U team playing up.
Non-CP always plays up a level in the fall when she would move up the next season..she played 12U last season but this Spring is when she actually HAD to move up..

 

[Official OWECheer]

You may be on to something.

It's pretty sickening across the board. The things kids take "pride" in are a shame. National championship jackets on kids who are competing 3 or 4 levels below their ability are an embarrassment in a so-called competitive environment. There are coaches who encourage it as well. There is solid research to show that the concept of the participation award, trophies for coming in last, trophies/jackets won in lesser divisions are more damaging to the psyche than losing. This generation of kids is the first generation in history to have less self-esteem/self-worth than the generations before them. The science links some (not all, mind you, but some) of this to these false awards. Why? Because the kids aren't stupid, and they know they didn't deserve the award.

I know this is the all star thread, but I see coaches at the high school level doing the same thing. They come back from competitions and convince their athletic directors to make multiple announcements about placements in pathetically weak divisions. When you win 3rd place in a division that only has one good team, that's not accomplishing much. Especially if the top two teams in the state compete against each other and one eliminates the other in the regional feeder comp.

It's shameful. Athletic activities used to be about developing life skills. Then they became focused on winning to the detriment of character. Then it became about winning, even if it involved cheating, just as long as you won. Now we've passed that to this era of "just win," cheat, compete in a lesser division, use kids who belong to other programs to bolster your team, put kids on your team who are aged out, do whatever it takes, as long as you WIN. That's all that matters. It's a pathetic way for adults to behave, and it's a sad set of lessons that these kids are learning. What's worse is that coaches continue to do it because of the percentage of parents who support it. They may not actively come out in support of it, but they are passively supporting it by allowing their kids to continue to participate.

:cheering:

 

[ChicagoCheerDad]

Fyi, Craig no longer owns GT IL it is now owned by Wes and DJ. I wish them the best of luck

Has anyone been able to confirm this as true? @Rudags you are a coach there, is this just more cheer gossip or is this true?