All-Star A Growing Issue... I.e. Crossovers On Worlds Teams (for Bid Obtaining Purposes)

[BlueCat]

What no takers? Interesting how a week and a different gym changes peoples attitudes.

We could go through the same arguments if you want. I'm not sure what the point would be. Until the rule changes, nothing will change.

 

[Mclovin]

I completely agree with quitthedrama. I have zero respect for the players and the game in situations such as these. And let's be real, the USASF isn't going to take an email seriously that comes from a parent or a even a coach that has no clout in the business. They obviously feel as though their hands are tied on this issue due to either 1) EP's freaking out over lack of income from crossovers or 2) they feel any real rule on crossovers would be unenforceable. IMO, when the players know the rules of the game are "broken" and need to be fixed, it is their job to bring that to light, not take advantage of it. Well, any player that has a REAL interest in the sport itself and not just their own bottom line...

 

[FamousMatty]

Thanks for the information, from my understanding all 4 boys from X5 (bid winners this weekend) crossed over from FAB 5 (medium coed bid winners from December)

Anyone know who will be replacing the FAB 5 boys at Worlds?

I know that fierce 5 had boys on the team and, don't quote me, I don't think they were crossovers to Fab 5. So maybe those boys? Though I know Fierce is from their PA gym so don't know if that is a possibility. However, when watching X5 this weekend I was asking myself the same question.

 

[WorkToWin]

I honestly still don't have a huge problem with it. I have a problem with crossing down levels, but I still think level 5 athletes on multiple level 5 teams is okay. It's fair. Teams are competing against level 5 athletes, does it matter if they are on multiple teams? I could see it being unfair for event producers, yes. They give a bid expecting the team representing them is the team they gave it to. As for other teams? In my eyes that is perfectly fine. You competed level 5, and got beat by level 5 athletes. However I also believe that if a team deserves a full paid bid, they will eventually get it 95% of the time, with how this system is set up. If the bids were much more limited then yes I could see being more upset because you may not get that full paid you deserved.
All just my opinion.

 

[GreatWhite92]

Why do I more commonly find that with every problem that comes about, the reason no one can fix it is because the EPs won't like it? Who cares whether the Eps would like it. Without us, they get no money! So if they don't like the change than too bad...its not all about you, its about the sport and how it can become better. If they don't wanna play by the USASF rules than so be it, you lose all your money because A. you won't get to have Worlds bid competitions, B. you won't be a USASF competition anymore. I am sure there are tons of other events wiling to step up and play by the rules and take all your bids which in turn will take all your money.

 

[Mclovin]

Why do I more commonly find that with every problem that comes about, the reason no one can fix it is because the EPs won't like it? Who cares whether the Eps would like it. Without us, they get no money! So if they don't like the change than too bad...its not all about you, its about the sport and how it can become better. If they don't wanna play by the USASF rules than so be it, you lose all your money because A. you won't get to have Worlds bid competitions, B. you won't be a USASF competition anymore. I am sure there are tons of other events wiling to step up and play by the rules and take all your bids which in turn will take all your money.

From what I can gather from all of the things I've read, is that the USASF fears EP's will jump ship and leave the USASF if they force their hand with certain issues...Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So the end result would end up being a sport divided by two different governing bodies which would hurt us even more. Of course my opinion is let them jump ship and we'll make due with who's left. But I guess there would be more complications with that than what I think there would be...

 

[yojaehs]

From what I can gather from all of the things I've read, is that the USASF fears EP's will jump ship and leave the USASF if they force their hand with certain issues...Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So the end result would end up being a sport divided by two different governing bodies which would hurt us even more. Of course my opinion is let them jump ship and we'll make due with who's left. But I guess there would be more complications with that than what I think there would be...

Not the first and won't be the last that the USASF won't make a BIG rules change. I feel that they move at a turtles pace with things like this. Flip side, when they make a rule, and gyms find the loopholes so to speak they come under fire. Often times they are in a lose/lose. Until USASF membership grows they will continue to have limited power at forcing EP's hand.

 

[ShallowPoms]

I honestly still don't have a huge problem with it. I have a problem with crossing down levels, but I still think level 5 athletes on multiple level 5 teams is okay. It's fair. Teams are competing against level 5 athletes, does it matter if they are on multiple teams? I could see it being unfair for event producers, yes. They give a bid expecting the team representing them is the team they gave it to. As for other teams? In my eyes that is perfectly fine. You competed level 5, and got beat by level 5 athletes. However I also believe that if a team deserves a full paid bid, they will eventually get it 95% of the time, with how this system is set up. If the bids were much more limited then yes I could see being more upset because you may not get that full paid you deserved.
All just my opinion.

I agree crossing over to another level 5 team is okay but when it comes down to worlds and the fact that EPs are somewhat cheated Im not okay with that.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

Not the first and won't be the last that the USASF won't make a BIG rules change. I feel that they move at a turtles pace with things like this. Flip side, when they make a rule, and gyms find the loopholes so to speak they come under fire. Often times they are in a lose/lose. Until USASF membership grows they will continue to have limited power at forcing EP's hand.

This is what, the fifth thread that has come full circle and ended up back at this point?

So, to summarize....

• USASF has limited authority because they don't represent a majority - or even a significant percentage - of the athletes in the sport.
• USASF has no direct influence on the EPs because USASF doesn't have enough athlete members to impact them financially if they refuse to comply with USASF rules and USASF bans member participation in their events. The EPs simply continue to do business with the much larger numbers of non-USASF athletes as their customer base.
• Because USASF doesn't have a large number of athletes bringing in revenue, they can use the excuse that they don't have the funds or manpower to pursue the rules changes as fast or as aggressively as you need. BTW, I'm not buying that excuse, but without the issues above being resolved, it isn't worth the effort to challenge that. Even if they drop that excuse and change the rules they can't enforce them with the EPs - unless the EPs willingly support the changes too. USASF just doesn't have the numbers behind them.

It looks to me that through your discussions you have narrowed this down to two options:

Option One
USASF needs to build their membership to a level where they CAN have the power in numbers needed to represent the sport and CAN impact the EPs who don't comply with what the majority demands. Until they do that anything USASF does in the way of Athlete Registration or any other rule change only has an impact relative to Worlds. It does nothing to prevent sandbagging or crossovers at any other level or competition. It does nothing to ensure that any EP will even be willing to enforce those rules that affect the Worlds teams.

What is USASF doing to encourage small, local gyms and athletes in Levels 1-4 to join? What benefit do they offer those athletes and families to encourage registration - above and beyond the gym certifications? That was a nice feature, but it seems they stalled at that and never moved forward from there. Did the creativity die or did the interest die as the focus became Level 5 and Worlds, Worlds, Worlds? ($$$$)

Option Two
This has been mentioned here many times by some of the most powerful owners and coaches in the business; The coaches and programs themselves need to start demanding that the EPs change. That could start now, with or without USASF stepping up their game. Individually you can let an EP know you will not attend if they don't change, but for that tactic to work enough programs have to do it at the same time so the EP feels the financial pain. How does a movement like that get started and how does it become an organized, nationwide effort? Coaches and owners, how would you go about uniting for a common goal? What has worked in the past?

Other options?

 

[Ceacoach]

To your point = ASGA Allstar gym association
Join us ..

 

[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

To your point = ASGA Allstar gym association
Join us ..

I've been complaining about this for years. Gym owners spend all their time and energy, training and building athletes and EPs and their suspicious ways tend to ruin our cheerleaders' experience with the sport. Yet some (probably most) are making six figure salaries. And not just Varsity execs. IMO they are the weak link bc they see bottom line without being on the front line.

For example I get an email about a month ago from Jam Brands telling me that I need to have more sportsmanship and do a better job running my business so that our industry can grow. All I heard was, work harder to get a bigger gym so you can bring more kids to my events. I'm so over it!

I think NorCal and DFW area have an association like this. I wonder if it has helped them get so leverage over EPs.


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[Rudags]

This sport is VERY political. Its who you know.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

This sport is VERY political. Its who you know.

And what influences and motivates politicians and politics? Financial impact to their fat wallets and your support (votes).

You - coaches and owners - control both, relative to the EP 'politicians'. Ultimately (ha ha, pun intended) you can decide which direction you want them to go by hitting them where it hurts.

Back to banding together...

 

[munchkinmom]

Does this issue impact the U.S. Finals? They seem to allow unlimited crossovers, unlimited substitutions. Lvls 1-4 makes up the bulk of an EP's money. If this is a non-issue for the majority of their customer base, EPs are going to look at how everything is hunky-dory at the U.S. Finals and wonder why everyone thinks that Worlds qualifying is wrong when it's even more restrictive than what no one's complaining about at U.S. Finals.

 

[BlueCat]

IMO, there are two different "chicken and egg" scenarios that need to be solved before significant changes can be made.

Athlete membership.

EP's don't want to require athlete membership at their events until a majority of the athletes are already members. (They understandably don't want to turn away most of their customers.) Gym owners don't really see a point in going through the trouble of registering their athletes until it is required of them by the events they go to. So basically, EP's won't require it until more athletes are registered - more athletes won't register until it is required.

USASF Power

Fair or not, there is a general mistrust of the USASF because they haven't seemed to be efficient at getting changes made. This makes many hesitant to give them even more money, authority, and power. From the USASF perspective, they don't have the money or power needed to get things done efficiently without going through many hoops, committees, and political BS. So, basically USASF says it needs more money and power to get things done, but people don't want to give them money and power because (in their view) they haven't been able to get things done with what they have.

(Related is that USASF can't afford to move out of Varsity headquarters, but people don't trust and don't want to give money to a group that is headquartered in Varsity.)