All-Star Comparing Scores Across Competitions

[yojaehs]

Do I think you need to have video review and score checks at every competition? I can argue that point either way. But I think my bigger point is that the points of the scoresheet that are more objective, like assessing difficulty, should be in the hands of someone who's responsible for getting it right and will be evaluated on their ability to get it right.

I'm just stating that I have now experienced it and I support it. Idk exactly the best way for this to be implemented but I think it is a very positive system.

 

[newcheerdad]

I believe that if there were a Judges Association the EP would be able to focus on the event itself and not have to worry about the judging side.

This - a million times over. Why EP's even want to be in that business is beyond me...it seems like something they should be happy to offload to a third party.

However, I don't think the judging association concept works nearly as well unless you standardize on a single scoresheet.

 

[Ashley]

I agree with everything BlueCat said and I've always made MY teams score sheets accessible to anyone interested. I believe that if there were a Judges Association the EP would be able to focus on the event itself and not have to worry about the judging side.

We should start a blog or website or something where we collect scoresheets. I know cheerupdates tweets a lot of them, but if we could collect them all in one place...

 

[u5sharks]

You have to also understand that with all these fine points of some of the new rules, a team can perform a skill one day PERFECTLY legally. Then the next day/weekend/month perform it without the same precision, and it's illegal. No one changed the routine or skill, it was just performed differently. I just don't seeing fining humans for having human error a solution. Panel judges make mistakes as well. Placements get affected. This happens at every level in just about every sport. Refs blow calls in the Superbowl. Olympic judges get it wrong...etc. etc.

I think the grey areas have decreased year after year. The thing is, coaches are ALWAYS going to push the envelope and go as far into any grey area as possible. This also makes safety judges' jobs harder. Just trying to give a little perspective from the other side of the situation.

I can give a perfect example of that. In our end pyramid , the flyers on either end land in a prone position. We have never had a problem. But second day at GLCC , one of our flyers let her head drop below her shoulders. She was caught but didnt keep her head up. We got a safety deduction and it cost us a full paid bid. :) needless to say, were are changing that 'out', to not make that error again.

 

[5-6-7-8]

I'm just stating that I have now experienced it and I support it. Idk exactly the best way for this to be implemented but I think it is a very positive system.

I would love to see video review implemented. But no clue how to do it efficiently (and after an entire division has competed.)

For a two day comp, maybe day 1 is worth more, because we can afford more time to more carefully review scores. Day 2 would be more of a "confirmation" of day 1.

 

[yojaehs]

I would love to see video review implemented. But no clue how to do it efficiently (and after an entire division has competed.)

For a two day comp, maybe day 1 is worth more, because we can afford more time to more carefully review scores. Day 2 would be more of a "confirmation" of day 1.

Just for the record I'll cover the process that I experienced.

1. About 10 minutes after team performed behind the judges is a table with a member of the event staff and a computer screen.
2. I was handed a sheet that had scoring "ranges" not final scores on technique etc. JUST RANGES. Also, if a safety penalty was applied it was also shown there.
3. If range was debatable it was mentioned to the event staff member then directions of the next step were told. In my case I was told to hold on about 5 minutes while another coach was reviewing.
4. I sat and watched the video and explained why stunt/tumbling number should be counted to place me within the range.
5. Legality discussed.
6. Signed paper agreeing to ranges.
7. Moved on with knowledge of where my team was within range.
8. Happy or unhappy with results I knew where my team fell within the ranges or if safety penalty was applied.

 

[Deleted member 15]

yojaehs Let me know what you would like the Judges Association to cover and any other relevant information and I'll take it to Jim.

Others feel free to add on.

 

[yojaehs]

yojaehs Let me know what you would like the Judges Association to cover and any other relevant information and I'll take it to Jim.

Others feel free to add on.

Will do!

 

[BlueCat]

I agree with everything BlueCat said and I've always made MY teams score sheets accessible to anyone interested. I believe that if there were a Judges Association the EP would be able to focus on the event itself and not have to worry about the judging side.

This judges association needs to have event producer input, but be independent of event producer control. The panel judges group need to have autonomy, IMO, and be free from the gentle guiding hand of the Memphis Collective.

(If and only if Les were in charge, as he clearly should be, of a safety/legality group, then THAT could be USASF-controlled.)

 

[yojaehs]

This judges association needs to have event producer input, but be independent of event producer control. The panel judges group need to have autonomy, IMO, and be free from the gentle guiding hand of the Memphis Collective.

(If and only if Les were in charge, as he clearly should be, of a safety/legality group, then THAT could be USASF-controlled.)

I think a judges association should be separate from any EP or Federation. I see it as a gymnastics judges system. Yes, coaches and major events send appeals to the judges associations but at the end of the day the production of the event should be the EP, the scoring should be separate.
Example: Olympics Gymnastics - The Olympics aren't an awful event, the judge from "X" is an awful judge and should be fired. This does not taint the Olympics. This does not taint the other competent judges. The Olympics choose judges based on qualifications and experience mistakes occur and human error exists.
All too often there are conspiracy theories or event entire events that are tainted by a small portion of judges. If the responsibility of scoring were separate from the event itself I feel events would run much smoother.

 

[Deleted member 15]

This judges association needs to have event producer input, but be independent of event producer control. The panel judges group need to have autonomy, IMO, and be free from the gentle guiding hand of the Memphis Collective.

(If and only if Les were in charge, as he clearly should be, of a safety/legality group, then THAT could be USASF-controlled.)

Would you prefer Les be in charge of the panel judges and someone else take rules OR Les stay with rules and someone else take panel. If someone else takes panel, please name a couple suggestions.

(I don't ask about someone else taking rules because that list has already been narrowed down to 5.)

 

[newcheerdad]

This judges association needs to have event producer input, but be independent of event producer control. The panel judges group need to have autonomy, IMO, and be free from the gentle guiding hand of the Memphis Collective.

(If and only if Les were in charge, as he clearly should be, of a safety/legality group, then THAT could be USASF-controlled.)

I think realistically, EP's are going to have to input, and even a financial stake, in ensuring that a judges association gets off the ground. There needs to be an infrastructure in place for judges to be trained, certified, and reviewed. That costs money, and I don't think you can initially do that just by member dues. That doesn't mean necessarily you roll this into the USASF - although in a perfect world that is the place where this should be - but I think it's naive to think that EP's wouldn't have a role in this.

I think the judges association should cover the following key areas:

-Certification. Bottom line - anyone who wants to judge a USASF-sanctioned event must be certified. The requirements for certification increase as the level of competition you want to judge increases, which means you'll have levels of judges much like you have levels of soccer referees.

-Training. This involves not just in-person class training, but ongoing education and assessment. If you want to advance to higher level competitions, you not only need to take the appropriate classes, but there needs to be assessments done by your peers as well as highly-qualified judges who can review your work.

-Mechanics. One of the thing I learn as a referee is a fairly standard way to do things, whether it's signal for a foul, communicate with my center referee or even what I'm supposed to do in the pre-game. One of the key things I'd like to see is a judges association talk about how to standardize those things and then hold people to that standard - whether it be how you handle particular parts of the scoresheet, how you handle coach inquiries, or even how the simple mechanics of how you score a routine. It might silly to get to that level of detail, but officiating is a detail-oriented job.

The one thing that a judging body can't do is the thing that would make such an association most effective - enforce a single universal scoresheet and scoring rubric. Until you have that, there will be a pretty finite limit as to the effectiveness of such a panel.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I think a judges association should be separate from any EP or Federation. I see it as a gymnastics judges system. Yes, coaches and major events send appeals to the judges associations but at the end of the day the production of the event should be the EP, the scoring should be separate.
Example: Olympics Gymnastics - The Olympics aren't an awful event, the judge from "X" is an awful judge and should be fired. This does not taint the Olympics. This does not taint the other competent judges. The Olympics choose judges based on qualifications and experience mistakes occur and human error exists.
All too often there are conspiracy theories or event entire events that are tainted by a small portion of judges. If the responsibility of scoring were separate from the event itself I feel events would run much smoother.

I think starting off it has to be under USASF so they can make the EPs use it. Once it has legs it can separate.

Also, once you collect all the ideas, email them to me.

 

[Ashley]

-Certification. Bottom line - anyone who wants to judge a USASF-sanctioned event must be certified. The requirements for certification increase as the level of competition you want to judge increases, which means you'll have levels of judges much like you have levels of soccer referees.

This makes a lot of sense. USASF already splits EPs that give out Worlds Bids into two tiers, so they should be able to do the same for various competitions. Tier 1 Worlds events should be the highest level, then Tier 2, and so on. And if you're going to use the Worlds Scoresheet at one of those events, the judges need to actually be trained in it.

 

[newcheerdad]

This makes a lot of sense. USASF already splits EPs that give out Worlds Bids into two tiers, so they should be able to do the same for various competitions. Tier 1 Worlds events should be the highest level, then Tier 2, and so on. And if you're going to use the Worlds Scoresheet at one of those events, the judges need to actually be trained in it.

Exactly. Whether you break it out in that manner (tier 1 vs. tier 2 vs. tier 3) or use some other criteria is a detail, but the practical guideline should be that demonstrated competency as a judge is a pre-requisite for advancement.