All-Star Comparing Scores Across Competitions

[BlueCat]

I think starting off it has to be under USASF so they can make the EPs use it. Once it has legs it can separate.

Also, once you collect all the ideas, email them to me.

Few things in life are quite as permanent as a "temporary program" in a bureaucracy. I don't see USASF releasing control of that once they had it. However, it may be politically impossible to get it going at all without them being in charge of it, so that may be a moot point.

I do think that Les would be most people's first choice to run the legality/safety side of it.

 

[cheerinfo]

Katie Stella wouldn't be a bad choice for the Panel Judges...keeping it in the family! But I think she is great!

 

[KDCheerMom]

Been reading this thread in awe!!! What a great collaborative discussion about a legitimate concern and a potential real outcome for improvement. Way to go Fierceboarders. I'm impressed.

 

[newcheerdad]

Few things in life are quite as permanent as a "temporary program" in a bureaucracy. I don't see USASF releasing control of that once they had it. However, it may be politically impossible to get it going at all without them being in charge of it, so that may be a moot point.

I do think that Les would be most people's first choice to run the legality/safety side of it.

The USASF is, for better or worse, the quasi-defacto governing body for all-star cheer. So yeah, it probably belongs there.*

*edited to reflect reality

 

[yojaehs]

One of the main benefits of having a separate Judges Association would be that no EP or Governing Body would be able to sway them. I get that USASF would be needed to require EP's to use them. Pardon my skepticism when relying on USASF and scoring requirements (universal score sheet) still aren't mandatory.
I get where everyone is coming from but I'd rather it go a different way, just my opinion.

 

[newcheerdad]

One of the main benefits of having a separate Judges Association would be that no EP or Governing Body would be able to sway them. I get that USASF would be needed to require EP's to use them. Pardon my skepticism when relying on USASF and scoring requirements (universal score sheet) still aren't mandatory.
I get where everyone is coming from but I'd rather it go a different way, just my opinion.

I believe the fundamental purpose of judges above all else is to:

-Ensure that the routine followed the rules set forth by the sport.
-To evaluate the routine based on objective and subjective criteria in order to determine which routine was better.

The thing about the legality/safety side is that it's fairly well-defined. You have safety judges and a method by which those judges are certified. I'm sure the process could be better, but there is a process.

For the rest of the scoresheet, there is no such standard. It's set by the EP's. A Jamfest rubric is different than a Varsity rubric which is different than an Xtreme Spirit rubric. It's not just different in terms of the numbers you put down, but to a certain extent the criteria by which you are judging.

To me, without some kind of standardization of the objective standards on how you score cheer, a judges association doesn't meet many of the criteria stated above. You wouldn't be able to decouple judging from the EP's at all, because the EP's would still have heavy influence on the "right" way to judge based on their scoresheets. You wouldn't be able to create standardized training or evaluation, because evaluators and trainers would have to train on multiple scoresheets. I'm not saying you couldn't still have a judging association at that point, but I'm not necessarily sure what the value-add would be.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Few things in life are quite as permanent as a "temporary program" in a bureaucracy. I don't see USASF releasing control of that once they had it. However, it may be politically impossible to get it going at all without them being in charge of it, so that may be a moot point.

I do think that Les would be most people's first choice to run the legality/safety side of it.

Who is your choice for the panel side?

 

[Deleted member 15]

I believe the fundamental purpose of judges above all else is to:

-Ensure that the routine followed the rules set forth by the sport.
-To evaluate the routine based on objective and subjective criteria in order to determine which routine was better.

The thing about the legality/safety side is that it's fairly well-defined. You have safety judges and a method by which those judges are certified. I'm sure the process could be better, but there is a process.

For the rest of the scoresheet, there is no such standard. It's set by the EP's. A Jamfest rubric is different than a Varsity rubric which is different than an Xtreme Spirit rubric. It's not just different in terms of the numbers you put down, but to a certain extent the criteria by which you are judging.

To me, without some kind of standardization of the objective standards on how you score cheer, a judges association doesn't meet many of the criteria stated above. You wouldn't be able to decouple judging from the EP's at all, because the EP's would still have heavy influence on the "right" way to judge based on their scoresheets. You wouldn't be able to create standardized training or evaluation, because evaluators and trainers would have to train on multiple scoresheets. I'm not saying you couldn't still have a judging association at that point, but I'm not necessarily sure what the value-add would be.

Email your thoughts to me. [email protected].

 

[Lee Ward]

I am not a coach, just a mom but my youngest CPs team got hit with a safety deduction at Cheer America Nationals this weekend. We competed at one other Cheer America comp this season, plus an NCA comp and ACA Nationals but we were never made aware of any safety issues before this weekend. And nothing in the routine was changed.

I used to get frustrated with this type of situation as well, until I actually studied and took the Safety Certification test this past summer. I did pass the test, but honestly don't know how I passed. I now have the utmost respect for those safety judges that do an almost impossible job. They have to watch a routine they have never seen before, try to watch many different things going on at the same time, and try to remember all the intricacies of the rules for each level. In the end, Safety Judges are human and do miss things. If you want to make sure your routine is deduction free, bring in an outside safety consultant to review it, and give them a sufficient amount of time to really review the routine. That is my best advice.

 

[gymcatmomx2]

I used to get frustrated with this type of situation as well, until I actually studied and took the Safety Certification test this past summer. I did pass the test, but honestly don't know how I passed. I now have the utmost respect for those safety judges that do an almost impossible job. They have to watch a routine they have never seen before, try to watch many different things going on at the same time, and try to remember all the intricacies of the rules for each level. In the end, Safety Judges are human and do miss things. If you want to make sure your routine is deduction free, bring in an outside safety consultant to review it, and give them a sufficient amount of time to really review the routine. That is my best advice.

I completely agree with you. What is really frustrating is that the owner of our gym has over 15 years of experience and has also passed the Safety Certification. The rules change so frequently and, depending on the specific rule, can be open to interpretation. What one judge deems as a safety violation, another one may not.

 

[cheernerd5678]

Been reading this thread in awe!!! What a great collaborative discussion about a legitimate concern and a potential real outcome for improvement. Way to go Fierceboarders. I'm impressed.

it's a first! :cloud9:

 

[WyldWon]

I can give a perfect example of that. In our end pyramid , the flyers on either end land in a prone position. We have never had a problem. But second day at GLCC , one of our flyers let her head drop below her shoulders. She was caught but didnt keep her head up. We got a safety deduction and it cost us a full paid bid. :) needless to say, were are changing that 'out', to not make that error again.

Two years ago at worlds, day 2 we got a HUGE deduction...this element was performed by the team since day one, even sent into USASF to make sure everything was legal....after performing this routine 20 plus times, it was caught on out last and most important competition...cost the kids top 10.... So not right!!!

 

[u5sharks]

Two years ago at worlds, day 2 we got a HUGE deduction...this element was performed by the team since day one, even sent into USASF to make sure everything was legal....after performing this routine 20 plus times, it was caught on out last and most important competition...cost the kids top 10.... So not right!!!

Thats heart breaking

 

[5-6-7-8]

Been reading this thread in awe!!! What a great collaborative discussion about a legitimate concern and a potential real outcome for improvement. Way to go Fierceboarders. I'm impressed.

There have been a few of these types of threads. Not many, but there are definitely some smart and passionate discussions here how to improve the sport.