Crazy ideas for improving the all-star industry

[firefly]

#2 Get rid of Senior Level 4.2! See #4 below for reasons.

agreed



I definitely think the practicality of ages and levels should be taken into account and some divisions gotten rid of. 4.2, Mini 3, and Senior 1 should be gone.

agreed i dislike these divisions and think they should be gone because they dont make a ton of sense imo

4.2 is great in theory, but I'm not sure how it's panning out. I think senior open 5 has more potential for success because it's more accessible.

If senior 2 allowed for a slight increase in the difficulty of stunts, then I think the necessity for 4.2 would be gone. It's the feeling of being stuck doing 'easy' stunts because your tumbling is lacking that brought about the issue in the first place. Let's face it- for a good chunk of people, stunting is MUCH easier to learn/improve than tumbling in a short span of time. HOW many threads here are on mental tumbling blocks?? Notice how there are VERY few on stunting mental blocks..

Why don't we just get rid of senior 2 but keep sr 4.2?
I also think we should get rid of Mini 3, Youth 5, Senior 1.
And rwork the tumbling rules for senior open 5.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I know this is a terrible idea, but I'm going to ask anyway:

What has the USASF done to make cheerleading better?

Common Rules/Divisions are the 1st thing that come to mind and one could argue that was done pre-USASF by the NACCC.

Worlds is the 2nd things and one could argue its done as much harm as good.

You are free to argue both of those things. I would also be free to strongly disagree with you on both of those things.

Once a new thread is created for this topic would you mind expanding on your answer?

I asked the question to find out how people think the USASF has helped the Athletes, Parents, Coaches, Gyms, and/or Event Producers. What actions have they taken and what have been the intended and unintended consequences, positive or negative?

 

[f16cc028]

I am definitely in favor of going to the division I/II system and get rid of the small/large gym divisions. This will give the small gyms and even teams from some of the larger gyms a choice of who they compete against, remember larger is not always better and smaller is not always less.

I am also in favor of having the judges universally certified and a requirement for event producers to use judges from this pool.

Someone mentioned having each cheerleader be a card carrying member of the USASF and be required to have a photo ID with a barcode to scan at registration. I don't agree with this and simply think this idea is too far over the top and frankly I fail to see how it will improve the sport.

 

[KB_Legend]

I have been meaning to read this whole thread and just finally got around to it... I have really enjoyed quite a few of the ideas/opinions in here, I hope this and these types of discussions can continue, I will be a lot more inclined to read and post regularly. That being said can we split this up into a few topics so it is easier to follow and we can go into more depth on specific subjects?? Till then I'm gonna go through and make some comments in posts to follow...

 

[KB_Legend]

though each coach has their personal preference about the competitions they like to attend for different reasons, I think a universal scoresheet would be beneficial. with certain scoresheets, difficulty is put aside to make way for execution, and with others you can't hang without a difficult routine. not saying this scoresheet should sway one way or the other, but a happy medium between the two would be ideal for those who like to attend competitions of both types, such as Cheersport and NCA. even a universal rulebook would be nice... we've all had that routine, the one that hits the scoresheet well at one competition, then has illegal elements at another. I feel as if after every competition, routines get slightly "tweaked" for the sake of catering to each company, whether it be a safer stunt, more difficult tumbling section, or getting rid of 'illegal' elements.

and possibly a set of judges who travel between many competitions-- perhaps USASF can delegate those to form an unbiased opinion. i'm sick of the threads/facebook statuses/ etc that say "[insert company here] is unfair because team a has loose ties with the mafia and threatened a certain judge who's sister gets her teeth cleaned by our coach so they wouldn't score us better". or maybe some athletes/ parents that can accept their loss

It's looking like we are on our way to a unified score sheet already, which is a good thing!! Varsity has their "universal" scoresheet which most of their member companies are following and JAMbrands has their version. Is this perfect? No. Are there still some companies using their own scoring system? Yes. But you have to start somewhere and I think this is a major step in the right direction... Glass half full people...

As far as skills being legal at one competition and not at others, I think those days are pretty much behind us unless you are competing at non USASF member competitions of which I don't think there are too many left...

For the most part people who judge a lot do judge for various companies which is a good and bad thing... It's good because the more qualified people are going to multiple events and staying current, but it's bad because they are trying to juggle between various scoring grids. I think some type of USASF sponsored judges training and certification is a great idea but there are quite a few changes that need to be made before that is a possibility, mainly that the event producers will need to be on the same page, again the path is cleared but we need to walk it

 

[KB_Legend]

I would love standardized scoring! It seems like one competition rewards clean but then the next rewards "risk taking". It becomes very confusing even when you know the rules. I believe that if a team goes out and hits their routine clean they should score higher then a team that goes out and does elite stunts they aren't ready for and drops them.
I wish there was a way to bring the cost down....I pay more for cheer then I did for competitive gymnastics and the only thing I can think of is that insurance for a cheer program is higher then gymnastics. No more flea market vendors at comps!!! This is my biggest pet peeve, when I walk into an event and the whole concourse is back to back junk...light up toys and candy. Half the stuff I can go home and order online for half the price. Allow double backs and triple fulls for the higher level senior coed teams...that's what makes people ohh and ahh. Completely agree with moving Worlds back and forth....if you want to keep it a competitive market move it between FL and TX.

I would say that, generally speaking, if a team goes out and hits clean they DO score higher than a team that goes out and drops, but in some cases a team can be so strong in so many areas that they are actually a dropped stunt better than the next best team at a given competition. As far as I'm concerned this is ok with me, and it's something that most cheerleading competitions get right most of the time... And even the ones that get it "wrong" it's, IMO more often a judging error more than a scoring grid error

Cheerleading is an expensive sport, and I think some of the things being discussed could bring the cost down, mainly a reduction of the total number of events being held. I think we also need to bear in mind that it's all relative to the program you CHOOSE to be a part of and in some cases the team you are on within that program... The more you travel, the more you compete, the bigger the events you go to, the more expensive the experience, and in most areas there are options with lower tuition rates and lower travel expenses and less "extras".

IMHO double backs and triple fulls in all star cheerleading are a TERRIBLE idea! We have enough problems with improper progressions and unsafe instruction as it is and adding extremely dangerous skills could be potentially catastrophic for the industry, there is enough bad press as it is. Cheerleaders do not spend enough time conditioning and training to be learning those skills, in my opinion anyway, and I don't think there are really that many cheerleading instructors (compared to the total number) that are able to or qualified to teach those skills...

 

[KB_Legend]

1. No more "small gym" or "large gym" divisions. Let gyms declare before the season whether they are Division I or Division II. (roughly like NCAA). This is based on your OWN assessment of your experience/talent level. ALL your teams have to compete in that "division" or category for that season - no switching around competition to competition. ONLY Division I programs are eligible for Worlds. If there are enough teams in a competition division, the event producer splits the teams into D1 and D2.

I'm not opposed to this idea, i actually don't think it's THAT different than the current small gym situation... There are already quite a few gyms that qualify but choose not to enter because they want to compete against the evil big gyms. Basically this would just open up the division to some more medium size gyms, right???

2. Standardized scoresheet/score system While you are at it, make scores more closely reflect what the athletes want to work on and what the audience wants to see. Option: Let each event producer put their own "multiplier" in front of each category score to "weight" them however they feel is appropriate.

Coming from a program that bases all of their decisions around the scoresheet and the scoresheet alone I am fundamentally opposed to different competitions being allowed to weight categories as they see fit. From a coaching standpoint I want to know what emphasis (based on potential score) is being placed on each category and be able to put, what I consider to be, the appropriate emphasis on those areas at practice, and not have that change from weekend to weekend. I do, for the same reasons, completely support the idea of a universal score sheet, this is going to be difficult to get some event producers to buy into but like I said earlier I think we are on the right path and that is encouraging

3. Event producers MUST share ALL scores from ALL teams. We want to know why Team A beat Team B so we can all make our routines better. Let the teams keep their own judge comments, but we should be able to see the actual scores.

If my team is not winning I love this idea, if we ARE winning I hate it hahaha

4. Event producers should only have 1 "Nationals" per year. (multi-brand type events not included.)

This seems so obvious to me that I can't believe it even has to be brought up! Who ever decided that one event could offer multiple national championships?! Have your regionals, and call them whatever you want, and have ONE national championship! It's pathetic to think about how meaningless a "national championship" has become! I mean 434... just saying

5. Fewer divisions at Worlds. If there aren't 15 D1 teams registered nationally in any division, it gets combined with it's closest match. (Example: only 11 Large Seniors around this year? - throw 'em in with the smalls.)

I am opposed to combining small and large divisions but I do think medium coed needs to be gone and the number of boys on a large coed team needs to come down, for reasons already stated. I can't imagine losing either of the limited or all girl divisions though... I think some of the pruning needs to come from the international divisions but I don't have a great solution

6. Deductions are proportional to the number of skills being thrown. If you only put up 5 stunts, dropping 1 should penalize you even more than if you drop 2 out of 11 (do the math.)

I don't think this would really make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things because for the most part the teams competing against each other are doing the same number of skills but in the event that a small team is putting up 4 stunts I'm fine with them getting hit a little harder for dropping than a team that does 5

7. Fewer, but larger events. Event producers would even be on board with this. Good luck coming up with a way to make that work, though.

This would be great, more teams to compete against, better local (hopefully friendly) rivalries, and potentially lower cost. I actually believe this is in place within the Varsity events (only one varsity owned company event per weekend within a certain radius) I don't know about JAMbrands, and then there are the unaffiliated companies... So I think the big conglomerates are taking some type of initiative in that respect but until all the event producers can sit down and make some decisions for the common good I don't see it happening

8. Worlds rotates between Cali and Fl. (or even more locations.) Why should the same teams have to travel further each season?

Don't really see a downside here, the people who really need to be at worlds will be there wherever it is (within the continental united states, sorry Europeans and Asians) so why not spread around the home field advantage. And for my money NCA's venue is the best anyway so lets go to Dallas

9. Split Dance Worlds and Cheer Worlds into separate events Many people want to do both - why not let them? Different weekends.

I agree and whoever said it would decrease the attendance at dance worlds *cough* King *cough* is dead wrong because you aren't allowed to compete at both as of right now so if you change the weekend the many gyms that have strong dance programs could have their kids do both! I'm all for no crossovers between cheer teams but why not let a kid cheer AND dance if they want??? Someone who has never been at a cheer gym with a dance program wouldn't get that though...

10. 2 L5 coed divisions: Limited Coed 1-6 males. Coed 7-15 males. That is right. Limiting the max number of males on any 1 team will, in the long run, increase the # of total males competing in the sport overall (insert long dissertation on the economics of large coed teams here . . .)

I alluded to this earlier, but yes. And I don't need the dissertation to know that it would increase the total number of males involved in the sport and potentially revive a dieing division

11. Move Worlds out of Milk House. That venue is NOT up to the standards of the event itself. Even the Orange County Convention Center down the street would be a marked improvement venue-wise. (The Anaheim Convention Center across the street from Disneyland would be perfect, by the way.) We either need dramatically fewer teams or a bigger, better venue (or both).

The milk house is terrible and the Jostens Center is worse, like I already said NCA has the perfect venue but I'm sure there are any number of places better than Disney World

12 Sport-wide adoption of the CheerSport marking system. The horizontal lines make formations easier & routines safer. The clean programs (sorry Stingrays) will cry foul, thinking it diminishes a competitive advantage, but it just makes too much sense. Don't worry, Orange will still be cleaner than everyone else.

I'm fine with this, I don't think it will really help people as much as they think... I'm not sure I will go so far as to say it will make anything safer, but I do think the cleaner teams will still be cleaner and the teams that struggle with formations and spacing will continue to struggle

13 Have "unofficial" results available before awards ceremonies.
I may lose a lot of people on this one, but hear me out. It is incredibly difficult to learn you are in 2nd place at Worlds (or whatever place at whatever event) under the microscope of everyone staring at your team the very moment you find out. Any wrong gesture or expression immediately gets immediately taken as poor sportsmanship. It is much easier on the athlete to learn their scores elsewhere and compose themselves before the awards ceremonies. I hate the "well they should have been happy to be 2nd, I know I would" argument thrown about. Under the current system, the very moment your name is called out is NOT usually pleasant. (If there are only 2 teams left, it is typically a let-down to THEN hear that you are 2nd out of those 2.)

I am not opposed to this idea at all, I do think a compromise for the people who want the excitement of not knowing could be that we are allowed to review our OWN scoresheet only and make sure we are in the ranges that we should be and that we don't find any discrepancies with our own scores but at the same time keeping the actual placements a secret. I believe that we should be judging ourselves against the grid not the other teams anyway. I totally understand your statements about the reactions at awards, and that's why I watch from the back or the side haha

14 - USASF should REQUIRE membership of all athletes competing at USASF-sactioned events

This is another one that seems like a no brainer to me, it's not that big of a fee, and the money to make these changes needs to come from somewhere

:rays:

 

[BlueCat]

Whoever had admin capability here - what is your suggestion for organizing this a bit better? I hate to just keep opening up new topics that end up getting spread around. I can keep going - probably into the 50s, but I think that would just make an unreadable mess. (I'm sure there are MANY more ideas out there - anxious to hear/discuss them, too.)

 

[King]

i think we have one giant thread or MANY multiple threads. you put forth a lot of good ideas on here with a lot of different things to talk about.

And I just thought of another idea. At all events DII teams can have crossovers up and down levels all they want. Also, at all events, DI teams can only crossover kids on the same level so they meet age restrictions.

 

[Deleted member 15]

How about creating a new section and starting a new topic for each of the 14 (and growing) recommendations?

 

[King]

i can make a USASF section i guess...

but under what? allstar or competitions?

 

[Level5Mom]

Someone mentioned having each cheerleader be a card carrying member of the USASF and be required to have a photo ID with a barcode to scan at registration. I don't agree with this and simply think this idea is too far over the top and frankly I fail to see how it will improve the sport.

What does this do? First and foremost it would track the number of registered all stars in this country. It basically computerizes everything. Studies could be done on trends in metropolitan areas and low-lying areas. It could be used to register teams at events (go by number instead of name), it could include the universal waiver as well. Also, it could be used to track crossovers at competitions, or gym to gym crossovers. The computer systems could be set to flag event producers if someones number has been registered at that event (within whatever constraints USASF wants to use). It could also be set up to flag ages if a number is registered in a division that doesn't allow for that age group.

Many issues are brushed off by the USASF because they have no way to monitor abuse. This system would give them a tool to simplify the system, give the sport some credibility, and assist in monitoring.

Obviously there are still loop holes. Even though you registered athlete number 123456 at a competition, you could potentially have another athlete show up in their place and no one would know the difference. USA Hockey, gymnastics, select soccer, along with many other sports, all issue a membership card with your number on it. They require you to bring it to every tournament in case someone accuses an athlete of misrepresentation. This would also prevent gyms lugging around birth certificates to every competition (do they actually do this??lol).

While the initial set-up of the system may be costly, the registration fee would eventually go towards maintaining the system. I think this would greatly improve the sport. I'd like to hear your reasons against it.

 

[flcheermom]

I like the idea of a membership card for each cheerleader, it really would not be that hard to do. My son plays competitive soccer. Before each game the refs are given the player passes, and the ref checks in each player....looks at the picture on the card - make sure it matches the kid. If for some reason a player's pass is forgotten, pulled etc....that kid cannot play in that game regardless of the reason - no pass, no play. It takes all of 5 minutes to check them in. I know for cheer it would be somewhat different, but the concept of each member having a card and being checked in at the time of registration (or when a team walks back to warm-ups) is really an easy concept to help this sport gain credibility and hopefully help alleviate any cheating. I think that it would work better electronically though. Each cheerleader pays a small membership fee for the card.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Implementation would be a nightmare because of the number of people checking-in in a short time span. Soccer would fewer than 50 people checking in per hour per field. Cheerleading would 10-20 teams checking in per hour per floor.

I think there have been a lot of great ideas in theory, but making them actually happen would be too hard or too expensive.

 

[ohkcheery]

Implementation would be a nightmare because of the number of people checking-in in a short time span. Soccer would fewer than 50 people checking in per hour per field. Cheerleading would 10-20 teams checking in per hour per floor.

I think there have been a lot of great ideas in theory, but making them actually happen would be too hard or too expensive.

Actually, it wouldn't have to be much different than a college ID card. The cheerleader has them when they go to warm-ups and the card can be swiped. No one can enter the area without a card. Because each team has their delegated warm-up time this could be taken care of then without much of a backup or holdup. If there is an issue, the team has a certain amount of time (or no time, depending on how lenient to be) to fix the problem.