All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[Keep_Believing]

Okay, I see what you are saying now.

 

[FlexyTumblerMom]

i agree 20% is the mark when it's sandbagging. That's almost all of the front of the routine for things like jumps and standing tumbling (put all the solid clean higher level tumblers in the front row, and hide the ones w/ janky form behind them). Also, you can make a higher level athlete the first and last pass, and use the others to be in the front of the groups of running tumblers. Also, the higher athletes can base or backspot in almost every stunt group and make up for any shortcomings in the true level athletes (I guess crossover flyers aren't so bad, but I'd bet in the majorty of cases the higher level crossovers are strong bases and back spots).

I personally would not be too happy if my CP was a true level athlete on a sandbagged team - it's no fun spending your season hidden behind kids who really shouldn't be on that low of a level team, and if someone is carrying an entire stunt group cause they are so far above the level, is the rest of team really learning anything.

Of course, for a truly small gym, where there are only a few atheletes at each level, the use of crossovers is necessary. I think it's different when a big gym w/ lots of athlete options does it. A gym w/ multiple level 5 teams IMO obviously has enough talent and options that they really shouldn't need to crossover a significant amount of kids down to level 2/3 teams for every competition. It's actually doing a disservice to the athletes who are true level 2/3 kids IMO.

 

[Teacher Mom]

Not if the level 4 kids only compete on the level 1 team at NCA. It doesn't matter if they're level 4 at all their other competitions.

Oh, ok. Now I understand what you are saying.

 

[seein_starz]

I personally was a crossover for the 2 seasons before I stopped cheering. I was level 4 and crossed down to jr3 we only had 2 other girls cross to the 2 teams I was on but a lot of the girls on the level 4 were also on a level 5 just because they wanted to compete more. But I personally think 5 is the maximum amount for a large team to be crossing down a level

 

[cupieqt]

Sandbagging is not even sandbagging anymore. It's the only way teams can be successful. My Sr 3 team is actually comprised of L4 athletes. But the other L4 teams around us are made up of L5 athletes. With the intricacy and length of stunt sequences mixed in with multiple specialty and combo tumbling passes, no one is winning with "true" level athletes.

And that's another phrase I dislike. I have athletes that started cheering last year. They both made Jr1. They quickly progressed so we decided to cross them to Sr 2 to get them experienced at both levels. They're on sr 3 this year. And they've actually progressed to L4 in tumbling and stunts. But onstage they still make rookie mistakes. So what is their "true" level? I've been coaching a lot longer than most of the people commenting and I can't even tell you. And I'M their coach. So let's not put athletes in a box just because we saw them compete on a L5 team. The two girls I just named could easily blend in on a L5 team. They've got the goods but what they lack is experience.

The agonizing that we ALL do over putting kids on teams and deciding what teams to form and the strategizing that goes into forming those teams is so far over most people's heads they can't even begin to speculate the real how's and why's of anyone else's gym. Most don't even know a third of what went into forming their own gyms teams! The parents of the kids in my gym don't even know half the story behind why their own kid was placed on the team they were placed on. There are so many factors that go into EACH and every athlete....you just don't even know. Picture good old Olivia Pope in her office with her team and they have that nifty little wall filled with pictures and facts about 1 person. Now imagine that and multiply it by a gym full of kids. And then maybe you kind of sort of have an idea of how coaches and gym owners come to these decisions.

My point is there are a LOT of different strategies that go into forming teams. The intimate knowledge that goes into deciding where to put certain athletes and why is so extensive it's not worth the time and effort to try and explain it. The ones who do stop and give you some reasons behind their decisions? I promise you those are just the very general reasons. They aren't the whole story.


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[TheVipersMom]

IMO, the magic number is 20% more than 1 level. On most teams, that's enough to effect multiple stunt groups. I know most people focus on tumbling when talking about sandbagging, but I think tumbling 2 or more levels lower can come back and bite you in the hiney. Muscle memory, anyone? I've seen multiple layouts that were supposed to be BHS. Oops...
Stunting, though, can make or break a team. If you have a L2 team of 20 and 4 backspots form your L4 team cross down, they can probably single handedly save those extensions. Same with any position, IMO.
As far as the team not be a true level team? I'd say 40-50%.

Lol funny you bring up muscle memory.

A crossover heavy gym at a comp we were at today (I don't think they are sandbagging really because they have a lot of lower level athletes on the team without the skill so I think they just balance it out to create more teams)

Anyways it was a level 3. They did a standing squad jump 2 Bhs and one girl threw a tuck instead.

Obviously it was accident, I would bet she is on their level 4 team but I was like wow that sucks. What a stupid safety to get over a mistake.

Hope no one was too mad!

 

[omgitssydthekid]

Lol funny you bring up muscle memory.

A crossover heavy gym at a comp we were at today (I don't think they are sandbagging really because they have a lot of lower level athletes on the team without the skill so I think they just balance it out to create more teams)

Anyways it was a level 3. They did a standing squad jump 2 Bhs and one girl threw a tuck instead.

Obviously it was accident, I would bet she is on their level 4 team but I was like wow that sucks. What a stupid safety to get over a mistake.

Hope no one was too mad!

I'm actually really concerned that something like this is going to happen on my junior 1. Two girls cross to our youth two, but one doesn't have a back handspring (She's a great base and we pulled her up when another girl got injured in her school's PE class). However, about half of the team currently has back-handsprings and I'm terrified one of them is going to throw it in competition [emoji28]


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[TheVipersMom]

I'm actually really concerned that something like this is going to happen on my junior 1. Two girls cross to our youth two, but one doesn't have a back handspring (She's a great base and we pulled her up when another girl got injured in her school's PE class). However, about half of the team currently has back-handsprings and I'm terrified one of them is going to throw it in competition [emoji28]


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Our youth 1 that won NCA 2012 threw a BHS on finals day ..: lol good thing they won!

I'm always afraid my daughter will throw a layout ... I would run and hide lol and not show my face.

 

[cupieqt]

I'm actually really concerned that something like this is going to happen on my junior 1. Two girls cross to our youth two, but one doesn't have a back handspring (She's a great base and we pulled her up when another girl got injured in her school's PE class). However, about half of the team currently has back-handsprings and I'm terrified one of them is going to throw it in competition [emoji28]


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If they're trained well then they shouldn't.

Every year I pray to the cheer gods that I won't need crossovers. Then every year I do. I've never had one throw an illegal skill in all my years of coaching. I think it really is an anomaly for that to happen. If it does, I would assume that kid was a fill in from another team, not an all the time crossover.


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[omgitssydthekid]

If they're trained well then they shouldn't.

Every year I pray to the cheer gods that I won't need crossovers. Then every year I do. I've never had one throw an illegal skill in all my years of coaching. I think it really is an anomaly for that to happen. If it does, I would assume that kid was a fill in from another team, not an all the time crossover.


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We only had one "planned" crossover at the start of the season and now I believe we have nine.

I'll admit to being rather high strung which is why I worry about it. I'm definitely a worrier. It's more of an irrational fear that something like that would happen as it's never even happened in practice. *knocks on wood*



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[WinstonsGirl]

I don't mind crossovers for smaller gyms, ones where they might not be able to offer teams to at level kids if they didn't have some crossovers. And also to kids who do something different. Many of the crossovers in my gym fly level 5 and base level 4 for example. I'm much more ok with that as they may not be a true level 5 base even though they have the tyler and tumbling skills.

I also believe the chance to work on your lower level skills (lays instead of fulls) helps to improve technique for their higher level tumbling skills. Not talking about level 5 to level 2 here though. But cutting at level kids for higher level kids bothers me as does stacking a team on purpose.

 

[JMW]

I personally would not be too happy if my CP was a true level athlete on a sandbagged team - it's no fun spending your season hidden behind kids who really shouldn't be on that low of a level team, and if someone is carrying an entire stunt group cause they are so far above the level, is the rest of team really learning anything.

This was my cp's experience.

 

[KPep]

I read this and I feel sad because to me, the goal isn't just to have fun and participate but to do everything to win.

I try to find a way to make it acceptable, but it seems like I can't. Looks like I need someone to convince me.

I don't know if it's the same across the border, but here, if your gym has 126 competitive athletes or more, you are allowed to cross only one level up or one level down, except on open teams (you can go up or down 2 levels).

 

[CheerBank]

Our gym uses crossovers if the athlete wants to do more than one team. It keeps the younger levels strong and provides the girls with a higher or older team to compete on as well, whether the reason be skill wise, position wise, or just to spend more time in the gym and have two teams rather than one to compete on. It also gives the kids an opportunity to develop perspective and leadership skills as at some point they are the oldest on their age appropriate team but may be amongst the youngest on their older team. The age appropriate team is your team though until you age out (although we do have exceptions; we have an 11 year old with a double who was not put on the youth 2 team). Cp is on a jr 4 and a sr 5. If she wanted to do one team it would be fine but it would have been the jr 4.

I think we need more definitive rules in place with crossovers. No crossing more than one age level (no competing on a youth and a senior team in the same season) and/or one skill level (regardless of whether your higher team is competing at that competition or not). And no crossovers from Worlds to Summit teams.

 

[MissCongeniality]

I've been thinking about this in terms of cheer as well as other sports. I remember a time when you had to be an "amateur" athlete to be in the Olympics. Now look at the US basketball team (unh hung...yeah...definition interpretation has changed/athlete funding bla bla bla!). The reality...Our society has become all about the win. If XYZ is doing it ...we have to too. "Kids want to win" "Families will leave" again....bla bla bla.
There is a time and place for crossovers. There is no time nor place for sandbagging. But the win at all costs mentality has obscured the lines. Unless the powers that be can make a rule about it (and face it...unless it somehow benefits them financially, I doubt they will) just take a deep breath and deal with it because it's only going to get worse!