All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[klynn64]

The solution to the sandbagging/stacking problem is not to teach our kids about life, losing and tough breaks. Life provides plenty of opportunities to teach our kids about resilience. In the case where your CP has just lost to a stacked team the lessons would be more about;

1. Just because others do it, it doesn't make it right.
2. Stay classy
3. Life isn't always fair.
4. Adults make mistakes too.
5. Winning isn't everything.
6. It's better to lose and be honest, than too be dishonest and win.
7. Tomorrow is new day.
8. Never let any single event in your life define you.
9. There's more than one way to deal with adversity in life.
10. Pick and choose your battles.
11. Set the example.
12. In cheer when something isn't fair, have your parents get on the Fierce Board and find a solution. ha!ha!

There are plenty more but why make you suffer when #12 is all they really need to know.

People who think there is no problem, or believe there's no need for rules to change are people that have never suffered a significant loss at the hands of a stacked team. Let it happen to your team and then we'll see if you feel the same about the solution.

 

[klynn64]

Yes that would be me. CP is a flyer on a SR5 and is basing for the first time this year on a Y4. Yes both of those teams are competing at the Summit.

Edited to put a bold type face on two words.

I personally don't have a problem with an athlete doing this but if the whole team does it I have a problem with it.

 

[TheDivineCheerYaYaSecret]

And so do I. I wouldn't allow mine to do it.

I have a problem with multiple athletes crossing levels. I almost have a bigger problem with teams competing at a level below what they could really compete at.

Or

I almost have a bigger problem with teams competing at a level they can compete at but not in a way they can win.

I am saying that stacking is out and out not right. I am also saying that to me the trend now seems to be to compete the team one level below what they really could compete so that they are a dominating team. I saw it at Cheersport. I saw it at NCA. I am certain I will see it at the Summit.

I would prefer teams competing on the appropriate level. I think the appropriate level is not just if they have the minimum skill for the level but that they have the maximum skill for the level. Based on what I have seen across all non World's levels this season that's the only way they are going to be competitive.

 

[klynn64]

And so do I. I wouldn't allow mine to do it.

I have a problem with multiple athletes crossing levels. I almost have a bigger problem with teams competing at a level below what they could really compete at.

Or

I almost have a bigger problem with teams competing at a level they can compete at but not in a way they can win.

I am saying that stacking is out and out not right. I am also saying that to me the trend now seems to be to compete the team one level below what they really could compete so that they are a dominating team. I saw it at Cheersport. I saw it at NCA. I am certain I will see it at the Summit.

I would prefer teams competing on the appropriate level. I think the appropriate level is not just if they have the minimum skill for the level but that they have the maximum skill for the level. Based on what I have seen across all non World's levels this season that's the only way they are going to be competitive.

I agree the trend seems to be for teams to compete down a level for the win. It only takes for a few teams to do this. Before you know it everyone does it just to be competitive. The same can be said for stacking. This is a slippery slope. We need to look towards the future and see where this type of behavior is going to take cheer. Is it a place where we want cheer to be? Does this behavior impact negatively the way people view cheer ? Does it affect the credibility of cheer as a sport ? We need to look beyond the here and now and think long term at what is best for cheer.

I think we should look at how growing pains have been managed in other sports. Maybe there are lessons learned than can save us in cheer some grief. How do the governing bodies of other sports do things differently. I mean take the issue of stacking or sandbagging, do the rules need to change or do the EP's need to modify their event guidelines/rules to bring about change?

As cheer grows in popularity there will continue to be issues that haven't yet been encountered/addressed. Who handles things like this ? If parents have things to say or want to raise issues, where do they go ? Not gym issues of course, but cheer issues.

Everyone from parent to gym owner has a vested interest in the cheer of today and the cheer of tomorrow. And they all have valuable opinions to contribute. I don't want to put the Fierce Board out of business (joking) but where can people go to get answers to their questions or raise issues ? It all seems so vague.

 

[MissCongeniality]

It is vague. And there are so many parts of the (not legally) sport that are vague and it is incredibly frustrating. Can sandbagging be stopped? First how do we define sandbagging? We've heard it on this thread "oh they're competing 'up' to level 5 (from 2)" Or how many times have you heard other programs point at your/our program and complain that we don't play fair and stack our teams. Yet I think you know our coaches would argue that we just max out at levels.

It's incredibly frustrating! It stinks to go up against a team you just saw leave level 5 awards and now are taking the floor as level 3 (or vice versa)...but the industry is never going to go for "no crossovers" ($$$$). So can there be reasonable limits? 5% max? Again...from a $ perspective ...the more the better.

And finally how do you define what level a given team is? Is it by tumbling? Stunting?

This is all just too complicated ...it's simpler to focus on crop tops (/sarcasm)

I think the sad reality is... There's not enough incentive for changing this current situation. EPs want the $ from teams/crossovers...gyms want the win as it makes current customers happy and brings new ones in ...parents want the win so they can flaunt "national champion Suzy" on facebook in her spiffy new blinged jacket. (Oh, if you can hold past years jackets in said picture...you are just that much more awesome obviously ) (just conveniently leave out the part about level...heck the Facebook friends don't know cheer anyway )

 

[Mom2Cheergirls]

I think there is a big difference about crossovers and sandbagging.
To me a crossover is there to fill a void on one team that was caused by situations that can't be avoided - like an injury (my child can not currently do certain parts of her routine so she has a crossover - a girl from a lower team that was on the brink and now has the skills for the level my girl is on). We are a small gym there have been girls who have left and someone has filled in here or there when needed but the goal has always been to field the true team as it is. Most often our gym looks to the lower team and finds a girl on the brink and challenges her to work up.
Crossovers happen I don't think the general feel on this thread is that is not a bad thing we all get it happens.
Sandbagging to me is taking large groups of girls and putting them on lower level teams and stacking a team with the intent to go for the win the bid, the jacket, the ring. I think that gyms that do that and parents that allow that have lost touched with the spirit of sport. I think this issue needs to be addressed at USASF. We all see them and know when it happens the only people it doesn't seem to bother is the people doing it.
I can still remember being on a shuttle to get a rental car in Dallas and these older girls talking to my little one. They were all excited talking about being a level 4 team but their coach decided to compete them at a 2 so they were sure to win. My then 7 year old looked at them and said she was also competing at a level 2 but mini and was so proud her team had the skills to compete at that level. The girls started to get quiet and you could see the wheels turning. Mind you my kid had never heard of sandbagging or anything not sure I was even on Fierce board back then. As an adult it was interesting sitting back and watching that interaction - took the wind out of the sails of the big girls some.

 

[CheerDad18]

The problem with this thread is you are talking about two separate issues and many people are mixing the two. A great person my wife once said there are three sides to every story, your version, their version, and the truth. Do I think that Stacking is wrong, yes. To create a team so far below the Athletes level solely to Win is wrong. In most cases it done because of Money, but not always, or program survival. Where does this pressure come from, look in the mirror, it's the Parents.

How many times have you seen friends jump to another gym after a poor season? The pressure to Win and field a competitive product is huge. People no longer feel the need to be loyal to a gym, even though little Suzy has learned everything she knows about Cheerleading from that Gym. (Insert your own justification for leaving here) Many people just are not loyal anymore.

Cross overs are being abused in the case of Stacking/Sandbagging, but there isn't a gym that does not use them. You may not have them on your team, but if someone gets injured or quits late in the year they become a necessity in MOST CASES. Sometimes you maybe able to rework a routine without adding someone, but have one person go down, have another quit and 90% of the time you will need a cross over.

 

[Cheermom1969]

The problem with this thread is you are talking about two separate issues and many people are mixing the two. A great person my wife once said there are three sides to every story, your version, their version, and the truth. Do I think that Stacking is wrong, yes. To create a team so far below the Athletes level solely to Win is wrong. In most cases it done because of Money, but not always, or program survival. Where does this pressure come from, look in the mirror, it's the Parents.

How many times have you seen friends jump to another gym after a poor season? The pressure to Win and field a competitive product is huge. People no longer feel the need to be loyal to a gym, even though little Suzy has learned everything she knows about Cheerleading from that Gym. (Insert your own justification for leaving here) Many people just are not loyal anymore.

Cross overs are being abused in the case of Stacking/Sandbagging, but there isn't a gym that does not use them. You may not have them on your team, but if someone gets injured or quits late in the year they become a necessity in MOST CASES. Sometimes you maybe able to rework a routine without adding someone, but have one person go down, have another quit and 90% of the time you will need a cross over.

Your wife and I would get along well! I say that all the time.
But I digress...

You're right, we do need to separate the two - crossovers vs sandbagging. I think most people don't have an issue with crossovers, per se, as long as it's only 2 or 3 (or more for a large team). But when you have more than that and they're kids who compete in a higher division, then I'm going to side eye that team.
Yes, every gym uses crossovers. But the ones that "cross over" into sandbagging, well, booooo on them.
I've said this before, if you're a gym who can't field a team without a huge amount of crossovers from other levels, then maybe that team shouldn't exist.

 

[flcheermom]

I think it is the INTENT of the team. If a team is created from the beginning of the season with majority higher level athletes - that are also on other higher level teams - and formed to compete in a level lower than what most of those athletes are capable of - that is sandbagging. If a team is capable of competing at a higher level (no matter what the individual team member skills are - it is a team sport) and competes at a lower level to win- that is sandbagging. Being competitive within a division, does not always mean winning - there is only one winner on any given day. It is OK not to win, being a true level team getting beat by another true level team, that was better that day - that is the nature of our sport. Some days you will win, some days you won't. It is OK to lose if another team was better that day - because you will be the better team at another competition. That is what true competition is about - not forming teams just to get easy wins. But to form a team comprised of higher level athletes and drop them down level(s) just to win, to me is wrong. Coaches know the intent of the team when they are forming a "sandbagged" team - National wins, Summit bid - there is usually a customer payoff that they see must make it worth it to them. Using crossovers on an as needed bases for injury, someone quitting, or complete a team with one or two people is not the same thing.

 

[CheerDad18]

I do find it funny in reading some of the comments that some people believe it's not possible to max out a routine or have a dominant team without sand bagging. By some peoples definition of sand bagging, the second you have a single upper level skill you can no longer compete at that level. There is more to a level than tumbling or a single skill. Or if a gym has enough people to even make a team.

My CP barely got her tuck 3 seasons ago competed on a Y3 team. She flies and that year did not have a tumbling pass. So she really did not use that skill a lot. Last year she had her tuck down pat at tryouts and made the J3 team. During late Summer practices she was dropped from the top of a pyramid and had a concussion, did not tumble for almost 2 months and did no tucks in the routine for the remainder of the year and lost the skill, and got it back before try outs again and is on J3 again this year but could compete youth.

She maxes out on level 3 flying skills and has the ability to do some level 4 flying skills which she acquired this year. Because she flies a lot and is not a power tumbler she is not asked to do a tuck in the routine, she could not do the required pass well enough at the beginning of the year, but now can.She is competing UP in age even though we have a Y3 team. We only have a S3 team, S4 team, no level 5 teams. Because she takes privates she now has a whip but no layout or standing tuck. Where does she belong?

My CP team has been very dominant this year, they finished this year undefeated. There are 17 girls on the team, 5 girls are youth age, the other 12 girls are junior age, and only 2 will age out next year. At the beginning of the year 3 girls had solid level 4 skills and cross up.

There is a long back story which I will not go into but these girls are highly motivated and humble. They have turned major disappointment last year into success this year. I am sure many people look at this team from the outside and say it is stacked. Its their perception but they do not know the whole story.

It would be very easy to add one or two girls next year and pick up right where they left off, but that's not what will happen. This group of girls will more than likely all moved together next year and up a level just like they were 3 years ago, and be very "jankey" at the begging of the year. If things hold true to form they will "win" something they should not but for the most part it will be a growing year. The year after that watch out!

 

[klynn64]

The problem with this thread is you are talking about two separate issues and many people are mixing the two. A great person my wife once said there are three sides to every story, your version, their version, and the truth. Do I think that Stacking is wrong, yes. To create a team so far below the Athletes level solely to Win is wrong. In most cases it done because of Money, but not always, or program survival. Where does this pressure come from, look in the mirror, it's the Parents.

How many times have you seen friends jump to another gym after a poor season? The pressure to Win and field a competitive product is huge. People no longer feel the need to be loyal to a gym, even though little Suzy has learned everything she knows about Cheerleading from that Gym. (Insert your own justification for leaving here) Many people just are not loyal anymore.

Cross overs are being abused in the case of Stacking/Sandbagging, but there isn't a gym that does not use them. You may not have them on your team, but if someone gets injured or quits late in the year they become a necessity in MOST CASES. Sometimes you maybe able to rework a routine without adding someone, but have one person go down, have another quit and 90% of the time you will need a cross over.

I don't perceive a change in gyms disloyal. Do I change gyms? No. But I don't view people who do as lacking loyalty. You are a customer, they are a business, and you are paying for a service they provide. The gym doesn't give you a guarantee on position, team or wins. And you don't guarantee you'll remain year after year. If you feel you no longer are getting value for your dollar then you stop doing business.

When it comes to loyalty you are talking about a relationship that extends beyond business. Loyalty is something you earn. You would like there to be a loyalty between the gym and the athlete (parent/guardian) but neither of you can just expect it to exist.

 

[CheerDad18]

I don't perceive a change in gyms disloyal. Do I change gyms? No. But I don't view people who do as lacking loyalty. You are a customer, they are a business, and you are paying for a service they provide. The gym doesn't give you a guarantee on position, team or wins. And you don't guarantee you'll remain year after year. If you feel you no longer are getting value for your dollar then you stop doing business.

When it comes to loyalty you are talking about a relationship that extends beyond business. Loyalty is something you earn. You would like there to be a loyalty between the gym and the athlete (parent/guardian) but neither of you can just expect it to exist.

You just proved my point. Many people do leave because a gym is not competitive. Which is why some Owner/Coaches feel the need to stack, to win be competitive and retain customers.

And in Business you do build relationships that extend beyond business, because if you don't your customers will not be loyal. Its what I do for a living and if I did not build those relationships I would be broke.

We will agree to disagree,

 

[klynn64]

I do find it funny in reading some of the comments that some people believe it's not possible to max out a routine or have a dominant team without sand bagging. By some peoples definition of sand bagging, the second you have a single upper level skill you can no longer compete at that level. There is more to a level than tumbling or a single skill. Or if a gym has enough people to even make a team.

My CP barely got her tuck 3 seasons ago competed on a Y3 team. She flies and that year did not have a tumbling pass. So she really did not use that skill a lot. Last year she had her tuck down pat at tryouts and made the J3 team. During late Summer practices she was dropped from the top of a pyramid and had a concussion, did not tumble for almost 2 months and did no tucks in the routine for the remainder of the year and lost the skill, and got it back before try outs again and is on J3 again this year but could compete youth.

She maxes out on level 3 flying skills and has the ability to do some level 4 flying skills which she acquired this year. Because she flies a lot and is not a power tumbler she is not asked to do a tuck in the routine, she could not do the required pass well enough at the beginning of the year, but now can.She is competing UP in age even though we have a Y3 team. We only have a S3 team, S4 team, no level 5 teams. Because she takes privates she now has a whip but no layout or standing tuck. Where does she belong?

My CP team has been very dominant this year, they finished this year undefeated. There are 17 girls on the team, 5 girls are youth age, the other 12 girls are junior age, and only 2 will age out next year. At the beginning of the year 3 girls had solid level 4 skills and cross up.

There is a long back story which I will not go into but these girls are highly motivated and humble. They have turned major disappointment last year into success this year. I am sure many people look at this team from the outside and say it is stacked. Its their perception but they do not know the whole story.

It would be very easy to add one or two girls next year and pick up right where they left off, but that's not what will happen. This group of girls will more than likely all moved together next year and up a level just like they were 3 years ago, and be very "jankey" at the begging of the year. If things hold true to form they will "win" something they should not but for the most part it will be a growing year. The year after that watch out!

I think that it all comes down to how you define sandbagging. Personally I don't feel this scenario qualifies as sandbagging. Congratulations on an undefeated season. It sounds as if your wins were well deserved.

 

[CheerDad18]

I don't perceive a change in gyms disloyal. Do I change gyms? No. But I don't view people who do as lacking loyalty. You are a customer, they are a business, and you are paying for a service they provide. The gym doesn't give you a guarantee on position, team or wins. And you don't guarantee you'll remain year after year. If you feel you no longer are getting value for your dollar then you stop doing business.

When it comes to loyalty you are talking about a relationship that extends beyond business. Loyalty is something you earn. You would like there to be a loyalty between the gym and the athlete (parent/guardian) but neither of you can just expect it to exist.

Thank you, this was supposed to go on your other post dont know why it ended up here.

 

[Helen uk uni cheer]

Some said about if people don't have the skill for tumble they should step out. I wish my team did that because this is embarassing for me is I really can't cartwheel but pur coach want a full team tumble so while the whole team have nices ones and mine is like a a tiny athlete doing a bunny hop cartwheel. What was even worse was at the forst comp I was in the front having to do it at my request I asked to move to the back.

but does this mean I should stay on level 1 forever because of my lack of tumbling? I can back level 2-3 not a bad dancer and I really need to work on jumps