All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[123jump4!]

shaky little newborn L3 giraffe

Love it! :D

 

[cupieqt]

Love it! :D

I have a million. I also like to use "cat thrown out of a car" and "dancing like a voodoo queen".

It's a southern thing I think ;)


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[njallday]

I hate crossovers, but it is completely within the rules and legal so I usually just shut up about it. I also realize that while some gyms use them solely to their advantage, they are a necessary evil in smaller programs.

Ideally, I'd like to see a program size/percentage of crossovers type of rule. Say "Gym A has 100 athletes, no more than 25% of their kids can compete on more than one team. Gym B has 50 kids, 50% can cross compete." etc. random numbers chosen for simplicity but you get the idea. The bigger your program gets, the less crossovers you may utilize. Of course for any of that to work and be regulated the athlete registration system would need quite a bit of improvement. :rolleyes:

 

[newbiemom]

Something like this happened to us this weekend. Granted we were at a smaller comp but our J3 outscored a level 6 team. They were from a small college from out of state and it didn't appear they had many "true" level 6 athletes on their team but our level 3 routine outscored their level 5ish/6ish routine....

Your J3 routine was awesome! :) They were so fun to watch!

 

[FamousMatty]

I don't necessarily agree with the small gym vs. big gym theory on when it is okay to use crossovers. In some ways it seems as though we would be punishing the big gym for being a big gym. I think if the exception is made for a smaller gym then they should be required to compete only in the small gym division so that it is indeed leveling the playing field. I am at a gym with 250+ athletes at one location. Yes, we have more than enough athletes to fill a level 2 team with all legitimate level 2 kids. However, that small gym that crosses over half their level 4 to their level 2, "just to fill a team," is going to beat me...quite regularly most likely. If you are indeed small enough that you are having to cross kids to fill a team then one of those two teams should not exist. In the last few years teams have become smaller and smaller within their divisions at the lower level. I have seen more large teams with 25ish athletes and more small teams with under 18 athletes than I have seen full 20/32 teams in the last few seasons. You don't ever have to "fill" a team. If you have 12 legit level 2 athletes then make a 12 person team. As I stated we have 250+ athletes. We had enough kids to make a large senior 3 team with 25 athletes on the team and no higher level crossovers. I don't "need" to fill those spots with seven more people to make it to 32. You do what you can with what you have. I am by no means saying that crossovers just shouldn't exist at all, I just do not agree with the idea of using them to "make a team work." I am sure I am in the vast minority with this thinking but just my personal opinion

 

[Lazydaisytoo]

I don't necessarily agree with the small gym vs. big gym theory on when it is okay to use crossovers. In some ways it seems as though we would be punishing the big gym for being a big gym. I think if the exception is made for a smaller gym then they should be required to compete only in the small gym division so that it is indeed leveling the playing field. I am at a gym with 250+ athletes at one location. Yes, we have more than enough athletes to fill a level 2 team with all legitimate level 2 kids. However, that small gym that crosses over half their level 4 to their level 2, "just to fill a team," is going to beat me...quite regularly most likely. If you are indeed small enough that you are having to cross kids to fill a team then one of those two teams should not exist. In the last few years teams have become smaller and smaller within their divisions at the lower level. I have seen more large teams with 25ish athletes and more small teams with under 18 athletes than I have seen full 20/32 teams in the last few seasons. You don't ever have to "fill" a team. If you have 12 legit level 2 athletes then make a 12 person team. As I stated we have 250+ athletes. We had enough kids to make a large senior 3 team with 25 athletes on the team and no higher level crossovers. I don't "need" to fill those spots with seven more people to make it to 32. You do what you can with what you have. I am by no means saying that crossovers just shouldn't exist at all, I just do not agree with the idea of using them to "make a team work." I am sure I am in the vast minority with this thinking but just my personal opinion

Well not every comp splits out to small gym/large gym. And according to you, our gym should have told those new girls, sorry, but we don't have a team for you, go somewhere else? Our gym has literally 2 senior teams, level 2 and level 4. The only level we have more than 2 teams is junior, and we have levels 2,3 and 4. There are no level 5 teams in our gym at all.

I'm sorry, but I think you're out of touch with what a small gym needs to do to fill teams. Sure, I've seen extraordinarily clean teams with a small number of athletes, but it's not a realistic expectation. Small gyms don't have the coaching staff or mat space to split one S2 team into multiple smaller junior and senior teams.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

Well not every comp splits out to small gym/large gym. And according to you, our gym should have told those new girls, sorry, but we don't have a team for you, go somewhere else? Our gym has literally 2 senior teams, level 2 and level 4. The only level we have more than 2 teams is junior, and we have levels 2,3 and 4. There are no level 5 teams in our gym at all.

I'm sorry, but I think you're out of touch with what a small gym needs to do to fill teams. Sure, I've seen extraordinarily clean teams with a small number of athletes, but it's not a realistic expectation. Small gyms don't have the coaching staff or mat space to split one S2 team into multiple smaller junior and senior teams.

I don't think @FamousMatty is saying that you should turn away athletes. He's more referencing the gyms that pull crossovers to "fill teams," but they're making teams with 13 "true" level athletes and 7 higher level crossovers because they want a team of 20. That team could have functioned with those 13 "true" level athletes alone. The higher level athletes weren't needed to fill the team.

 

[cupieqt]

What people forget is that every gym can choose to fill out or fill up their teams however they like.

It's about respecting the process that works for each individual gym. One gym wants to only have two L1 teams with 64 L2 and 3 athletes. Ok. That's their choice.
This gym wants to have a L5 with 2 kids with fulls and 12 L3 athletes. Ok. Their choice.

But you can't get mad about how they form their teams just because they don't do it the same way yours does.

It's what I've been saying all along. It's a personal choice per gym.


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[Logan Vest]

I think it is completely unfair to have several girls from level 5 cross down to levels 1 and 2. The girls are level 5 for a reason, and I think it is unfair to the hard working actual level 1 and 2 girls. They 75% most likely beat the youth or junior 2 team that has level 5 cheerleaders on it...

This isn't directed at any gym, I made up examples!!!***

 

[Lazydaisytoo]

I don't think @FamousMatty is saying that you should turn away athletes. He's more referencing the gyms that pull crossovers to "fill teams," but they're making teams with 13 "true" level athletes and 7 higher level crossovers because they want a team of 20. That team could have functioned with those 13 "true" level athletes alone. The higher level athletes weren't needed to fill the team.

But again, our gym is maxed out on staff and mat time. So we should have had a S1 team with 6 girls, and then fold in the J2 age-outs to either S1 or S4? There's more to it than just athlete's bodies. The choice here would be to either hurt S4 with unskilled girls, or "insult" girls by making them level down... thereby bringing up the "sandbagging" all over again.

This is also a business. If a 12 girl S1 team comes in last place every comp, how many of those girls are likely to return for another year?

 

[dawgshow]

ITA. Big gyms don't need crossovers to field level appropriate teams.

Not necessarily, though. I've seen situations where there were enough kids to make a (maxed out) Y2, J2, S2 and a handful of L2 kids left over. To make a competitive team, the gym had to pull a couple of crossovers from a L3 team to make another J2. The numbers don't always work out.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

But again, our gym is maxed out on staff and mat time. So we should have had a S1 team with 6 girls, and then fold in the J2 age-outs to either S1 or S4? There's more to it than just athlete's bodies. The choice here would be to either hurt S4 with unskilled girls, or "insult" girls by making them level down... thereby bringing up the "sandbagging" all over again.

This is also a business. If a 12 girl S1 team comes in last place every comp, how many of those girls are likely to return for another year?

I've been on both sides. I've had level 1 teams with several crossovers (7:3 true level 1 to crossover level 2 ratio) and I've had level 1 teams with 11 true level 1 kids. I understand that every gym can find a justification for their crossovers. I don't necessarily disagree with a limited amount. However, it really does irk me when I see 40 or 50% of a lower level team filled with higher level athletes. You don't need those level 5 athletes on your level 3 team. There are several mega gyms that are guilty of doing this and I am not shy to admit that I side eye them.

 

[FamousMatty]

I don't think @FamousMatty is saying that you should turn away athletes. He's more referencing the gyms that pull crossovers to "fill teams," but they're making teams with 13 "true" level athletes and 7 higher level crossovers because they want a team of 20. That team could have functioned with those 13 "true" level athletes alone. The higher level athletes weren't needed to fill the team.

Yes I was referencing the idea of "filling" teams. Thanks :)

 

[Lazydaisytoo]

You don't need those level 5 athletes on your level 3 team. There are several mega gyms that are guilty of doing this and I am not shy to admit that I side eye them.

I guess I would too :) Maybe I'm just defensive because we're not there. I'd love to see our gym have just one level 5 team, even if my CP couldn't be on it. We are talking about a 2 level crossdown, 4 to 2. Side-eye me if you must. I'd have to double check, but I think there are only 3 level 4 girls on the level 2 team. Not a majority by any stretch at all. And like I said, even with the crossovers, the team comes nowhere near maxing out tumbling.

 

[FamousMatty]

This is also a business. If a 12 girl S1 team comes in last place every comp, how many of those girls are likely to return for another year?

With the way quantity and percentage is set up having only 12 athletes would not be the sole reason a team is getting last. We have a gym in our area having a pretty successful season so far with only 10 athletes on their senior 5 team.