All-Star Devil's Advocate: Will The Move To 30 Really Create More Competition?

[newcheerdad]

This is in reference to a post King made on another thread, and rather than hijack that thread I created a new one:

What is tough about talking about these ideas is that everyone gets EXTREMELY defensive about taking away or changing their cheerleading. To the point that even if it would help them succeed more they don't care. They like the way it has always been. I point towards my idea of 30 being the new 'Large' division. That division has EXPLODED with teams and competition and large senior has dwindled down to 3 (albeit 3 very talented teams). Next year or the year after those three will join the 30 and then 30 will be large, have 40 to 50 teams in it and be as competitively deep as small senior. But it didn't matter now much I discussed, brought up, pointed out, people wanted their 36. Even if it meant cheerleading would suffer, no one would be in the division, and 50 more teams would be in the small senior division than already are WE WANT 36!!!

My question: is some of the reason that medium is hot this year is because those teams know they don't have to compete against the big three? And when they move down to 30, will we see a fair number of those teams drop back to small simply because they think a high world's finish is more attainable?

In short, is the increase in the teams in the medium division a short-term phenomenon based on competitive factors - rather than a long-lasting paradigm shift?

I didn't see this discussed specifically in another thread, so if it was, I apologize in advance and will be happy to have all of you tell me to use the search bar.

 

[yojaehs]

I hear what your saying and I agree. But there is no fix, I see this as an experiment and I will hold off my further comments until I see how these divisions pan out.

 

[King]

not sure what the short term phenomenon would be? right now plenty of teams are maxed out at 30 and if they could add one more person and get an at large bid they would be guarenteed 4th place at worlds. right now in small senior you arent guarenteed to make the second day. to a small gym getting 4th in the world would be a HUGE honor. so why arent they doing it?

 

[Just-a-Mom]

I don't know...but I love that FAME is one of the only ones "bold enough" to go against the Big 3 and shoot for Large. :cheering:

I will be interested to see the replies to this thread. Interesting topic.

 

[King]

i mean, think about it... the WORST team in medium could add 1 girl and go large and get 4th. why not?

 

[Just-a-Mom]

i mean, think about it... the WORST team in medium could add 1 girl and go large and get 4th. why not?

My first instinct would be to say that would be embarrassing - to get 4th out of 4. But I guess not really since people post on Facebook all the time "Woo hooooo first place! National Champions!" and it'll be someone I KNOW was the only team in their division. So I guess those same people would have no qualms about saying "Woot! 4th in the WORLD Baby!!!" Ugh.



(But again...just for the record...Fame Epic is Large Senior. So there are 4 teams. I wish everyone would stop acting like Fame isn't even an option. You know I love me some FAME. :starwars

 

[njallday]

If a worlds win/top ten is your goal.. you'd be better off going against the top 3 than jumping ship and joining medium.

But in response to your question, I think medium is definitely going to be a long-lasting division.

Medium is just a much more ideal situation for most gyms. Say you have a relatively successful small senior team, and as a result you gain new talent or your gym is just growing. Having to add 16 girls to max out on everything is a BIG jump for most gyms. It isn't feasible in most situations. Sure, you could throw some level 4's in, etc. but to be truly competitive that just won't cut it. If you were jumping to medium, though, you could theoretically max out stunts with 28-30 girls, as that is still 7 stunt groups either way.

If the big 3 went to medium, they'd probably be even stronger since they would be shaving the 6 weakest links off their teams. (not that any of those girls are weak.. but you know what I mean) If the true large senior dies next season and medium becomes the new large, these teams will inevitably be facing "the big 3." The only other option is to go small and face an equally as talented division. Being "good enough" will no longer cut it to win worlds. You'd have to be extraordinary.. as I think it should be.

 

[mariahnicole1216]

My first instinct would be to say that would be embarrassing - to get 4th out of 4. But I guess not really since people post on Facebook all the time "Woo hooooo first place! National Champions!" and it'll be someone I KNOW was the only team in their division. So I guess those same people would have no qualms about saying "Woot! 4th in the WORLD Baby!!!" Ugh.



(But again...just for the record...Fame Epic is Large Senior. So there are 4 teams. I wish everyone would stop acting like Fame isn't even an option. You know I love me some FAME. :starwars

I didn't know about Fame! That makes me SOOO happy!!!

 

[newcheerdad]

not sure what the short term phenomenon would be? right now plenty of teams are maxed out at 30 and if they could add one more person and get an at large bid they would be guarenteed 4th place at worlds. right now in small senior you arent guarenteed to make the second day. to a small gym getting 4th in the world would be a HUGE honor. so why arent they doing it?

I think if you're a team whose goal is just to get to the finals, then this doesn't probably apply. If you're an elite team that's consistently been a world's contender, this may not apply. But I think there's a group of teams - perhaps right below the elite group - that might have made the choice to go to medium (either by reducing kids from large or adding kids from small) because they saw this as a window to get a medal. After all, there are three more medals to get.

And my question is whether those teams would be impacted if the large/36 division was dropped altogether. Would you stay at 30, where you might have a slightly weaker team overall and also have to compete against WCSS, et al. - or do you make your strongest 20 and take your chances in small senior, even if that division is stacked?

I think it becomes an interesting strategy question, more than anything.

 

[King]

I think if you're a team whose goal is just to get to the finals, then this doesn't probably apply. If you're an elite team that's consistently been a world's contender, this may not apply. But I think there's a group of teams - perhaps right below the elite group - that might have made the choice to go to medium (either by reducing kids from large or adding kids from small) because they saw this as a window to get a medal. After all, there are three more medals to get.

And my question is whether those teams would be impacted if the large/36 division was dropped altogether. Would you stay at 30, where you might have a slightly weaker team overall and also have to compete against WCSS, et al. - or do you make your strongest 20 and take your chances in small senior, even if that division is stacked?

I think it becomes an interesting strategy question, more than anything.

Possibly... but I think you talking about like 2 programs in the group. Maybe.

 

[crazyredhead]

Personally I think alot of teams are intimidated by the thought of the "big 3". I think if people stop making the "big 3" seem so far out of reach more teams will push for large senior. For years PSS and Fame have been right up there with the likes CEA etc. I think the strongest 20 in a small senior team is not the best. If every team thought like this all large divisions would die a sad death.

 

[King]

Personally I think alot of teams are intimidated by the thought of the "big 3". I think if people stop making the "big 3" seem so far out of reach more teams will push for large senior. For years PSS and Fame have been right up there with the likes CEA etc. I think the strongest 20 in a small senior team is not the best. If every team thought like this all large divisions would die a sad death.

I just don't get this method of thinking. So lets throw out 3 scenarios and tell me how they would play out.

Next year we just have Large Senior (36) and no medium (30). Do you think all the medium teams would go for large and large would be strong again?

Next year we just have Medium (30) and no large (36). the big 3 go to medium. do all the teams that were in medium this year leave medium because of the intimidation factor or do they stay?

We keep the two divisions next year. do they stay the same size they are this year, grow, change, or what?

 

[cheerheart4life]

I just don't get this method of thinking. So lets throw out 3 scenarios and tell me how they would play out.

Next year we just have Large Senior (36) and no medium (30). Do you think all the medium teams would go for large and large would be strong again?

Next year we just have Medium (30) and no large (36). the big 3 go to medium. do all the teams that were in medium this year leave medium because of the intimidation factor or do they stay?

We keep the two divisions next year. do they stay the same size they are this year, grow, change, or what?

If large was removed and all those teams moved down to medium, then I deifnetly think it would change the ball game. The large teams could just lower their numbers and choose their top athletes (though 6 less girls isn't that bad). I think that getting rid of large would make small AND medium more competitive. Some medium teams might drop down to small, being scared of the large teams that moved down. And they then they can choose their top athletes to go with the small numbers.

Honestly, I like seeing Large, Medium, and Small, because it allows more deserving teams to gain World's medals. But I would hate for them to totally rid the industry of Large because there is so much you can do with 36 members. An extra stunt group, more tumbling, more innovation sometimes.

 

[BlueCat]

What about the fact that EVERY program with a team in large senior this year also has a team in medium?

NOTE: the vast majority of gym owners who were arguing for a change to 30 were NOT trying to avoid WC, F5, and SE. (those teams would be in the 30 division anyway) They were trying to make the cap be a more manageable number for most teams. It wasn't until the last minute (to my knowledge) that the idea of a 3rd division even came up.

 

[King]

What about the fact that EVERY program with a team in large senior this year also has a team in medium?

NOTE: the vast majority of gym owners who were arguing for a change to 30 were NOT trying to avoid WC, F5, and SE. (those teams would be in the 30 division anyway) They were trying to make the cap be a more manageable number for most teams. It wasn't until the last minute (to my knowledge) that the idea of a 3rd division even came up.

Duh.. their own gyms are scared of themselves.