All-Star Difficulty Scores: Subjective Or Objective?

[cupieqt]

I agree with you that this is probably as good as it's going to get while maintaining some practicality and functionality in a scoring system. However, I am more curious to know what checks and balances are in place to make sure that a set of judges is assigning both similar and accurate difficulty scores within that range. What system is in place to stop a judge from giving a team with 5 back walkovers out of 12 the same difficulty score as a team with 10 back walkovers out of 12 (some EP's scoring systems DO have this)? Or giving the same score to a team that steps straight up into a heel stretch (sorry, using a level 1 example again) as they give to a team that does a switch-up into the heel stretch? I understand that it is logistically impossible to assign a value to each and every skill in this sport. However, I guess what I would like to see is more consistency in the way that scoring range in applied and truly rewarding a more difficult routine.

At the WSA events we attend, the Head Judge has a ranging scoresheet that you get 10-15 minutes after you compete. It shows any deductions you may have gotten and they count how many athletes do (or don't do) the skills. Coaches then check to make sure it's accurate. So you know right away (BEFORE awards) if you were judged correctly on the amount of athletes participating in stunts, tosses, jumps and tumbling. If only 1 stunt group out of 3 did the hardest skill, you won't get full credit bc not everyone participated in that sequence. If you do the most basic level appropriate skill, you'll be in a lower range than the team that did an intermediate or advanced skill.

If the numbers are incorrect, you can challenge it. You can only challenge for your team. Not against another.

And separate judges will score separate sections (I know some people hate this but they ALL give scores in dance/formations/overall impression so you still get the entire panels opinions on the routine). But they are responsible for knowing what range your difficulty will fall into and score you within that range. They know a bwo bhs in L2 will get you into a lower range than a bhs step out bwo bhs. They score accordingly and then they score the execution of those skills. They'll also tell you what you can do to increase your difficulty score (just in case you didn't read the grid or didn't figure it out). It's all very transparent. You know at the end of the day who scored what and if any teams got deductions (which helps a LOT when you're reviewing after the comp). I can "judge" from the stands and get it pretty close to correct if not 100% correct every time.

 

[ASCheerMan]

As a coach, maybe I should have sought out this resource, but I didn’t know it existed as it wasn’t linked to the actual scoring page. Maybe it would be good to add a little paragraph that states that additional scoring clarifications can be found on the Judges Training Video at www.varsityallstar.com/etc...[/quote]

I don't even look at it as 'agree' or 'disagree.' In a sport like ours, it will always be a struggle to find the balance between subjective vs. objective. Ultimately, it's most important that the teams are being placed in the correct order.

On a different note, your suggestion about the website ROCKED. I just submitted the change. Thanks for sharing your perspective (and thanks for remaining so positive).

 

[JulieP]

Thanks Justin. It's great to actually receive a quick reply from an EP.

 

[KB_Legend]

For some reason (I could be misunderstanding) it seems like a couple posters are saying the varsity rubric doesn't tell you what skills put you in what ranges, and that's just not correct... The rubric very clearly states what skills will get you into what ranges, all on one page as someone pointed out... Could someone give me a more specific example maybe?? Itt does give you room to be creative and make a coaching decision as to what is your best choice of skills without backing you into a corner, and the best part, to me, is it gives me an opportunity to give my team an edge by studying the rules and finding something else I'm allowed to do that no one else is thinking of because the rubric isn't specifically telling everyone to put it in. I would also like to add that really the only difference between the JAMbrands scoring grid and the Varsity scoring grid is that JAMbrands actually lists out every single thing you are allowed to do in that level, and Varsity just expects you to know what you are allowed to do because coaches should be familiar with the USASF level guidelines... Basically varsity says stunts that are legal in level 2 score in the 4-5 range and stunts that are legal in level 3 score in the 5-6 range, and JAMbrands says the exact same thing they just write out the names of the skills for you! Varsity does NOT tell you if a full up to prep scores more or less than a half up to an extended heel stretch, but neither does JAMbrands, they both just tell you that those skills are in the level 3 scoring range...

 

[JulieP]

For some reason (I could be misunderstanding) it seems like a couple posters are saying the varsity rubric doesn't tell you what skills put you in what ranges, and that's just not correct... The rubric very clearly states what skills will get you into what ranges, all on one page as someone pointed out... Could someone give me a more specific example maybe?? Itt does give you room to be creative and make a coaching decision as to what is your best choice of skills without backing you into a corner, and the best part, to me, is it gives me an opportunity to give my team an edge by studying the rules and finding something else I'm allowed to do that no one else is thinking of because the rubric isn't specifically telling everyone to put it in. I would also like to add that really the only difference between the JAMbrands scoring grid and the Varsity scoring grid is that JAMbrands actually lists out every single thing you are allowed to do in that level, and Varsity just expects you to know what you are allowed to do because coaches should be familiar with the USASF level guidelines... Basically varsity says stunts that are legal in level 2 score in the 4-5 range and stunts that are legal in level 3 score in the 5-6 range, and JAMbrands says the exact same thing they just write out the names of the skills for you! Varsity does NOT tell you if a full up to prep scores more or less than a half up to an extended heel stretch, but neither does JAMbrands, they both just tell you that those skills are in the level 3 scoring range...

I read the grid, and it does list some possible skills at each level. My complaint is more regarding maxing out difficulty and the vaguness of it. I have very difficult stunt sequences in both my junior 2 and senior 3 routines and generally max out stunt and pyramid difficulty. J2 starts with a tick tock (L2 style obviously) to bow, stretch, arbesque, scorp 2 scale, cradle, smush, cupie, 1/4 cradle. There's also some transitional stuff in there (power press, etc). In addition, they do baskets to immediate log rolls and hit 4 stunt groups for a libs with 15 girls (some scoresheets require some single-based skills to max out). The senior routine has multiple different baskets, transitions into and out of stunts that are L3, in addition to a 5 body position lib series and an opening with 3 extended heel stretches and 9 girls. Honestly, I always get comments on scoresheets like, "Way to max out the stunt/pyramid difficulty". My frustration is that my girls did VERY difficult stunting, and the judging coordinator that I spoke to after the competition didn't really have any suggestions on things I could do to increase my difficulty on their scoresheet. She made comments after stunt transitions and how those can increase your difficulty, but I felt like it was really just a generic comment as she admitted herself that she didn't see or didn't remember our routine. When all is said and done, I felt as though my teams' difficulty was not properly rewarded, and when reviewing the grids, I feel that there needs to be more objectivity to ensure that teams' difficulty is rewarded adequately.

 

[KB_Legend]

Would you feel comfortable telling me exactly what stunt your Sr 3 team did and what it scored?? I'm very curious now, what does it normally score at Jamfest events?

 

[cupieqt]

For some reason (I could be misunderstanding) it seems like a couple posters are saying the varsity rubric doesn't tell you what skills put you in what ranges, and that's just not correct... The rubric very clearly states what skills will get you into what ranges, all on one page as someone pointed out... Could someone give me a more specific example maybe?? Itt does give you room to be creative and make a coaching decision as to what is your best choice of skills without backing you into a corner, and the best part, to me, is it gives me an opportunity to give my team an edge by studying the rules and finding something else I'm allowed to do that no one else is thinking of because the rubric isn't specifically telling everyone to put it in. I would also like to add that really the only difference between the JAMbrands scoring grid and the Varsity scoring grid is that JAMbrands actually lists out every single thing you are allowed to do in that level, and Varsity just expects you to know what you are allowed to do because coaches should be familiar with the USASF level guidelines... Basically varsity says stunts that are legal in level 2 score in the 4-5 range and stunts that are legal in level 3 score in the 5-6 range, and JAMbrands says the exact same thing they just write out the names of the skills for you! Varsity does NOT tell you if a full up to prep scores more or less than a half up to an extended heel stretch, but neither does JAMbrands, they both just tell you that those skills are in the level 3 scoring range...

I DON'T know the varsity scoring system b/c I actually gave up on it a few years ago and I haven't returned. I really shouldn't comment on their scoring system since I don't know it anymore. I was drawn into the objective scoring conversation and it led to varsity brands. If they are so similar to Jambrands scoring where is the problem? Do they give more weight to certain sections? I could go study up on it myself but since we don't attend any varsity events I know I won't.

 

[juscheerthatisall]

So with all things being equal, level 3 mini is scored easier than level 3 junior? I'm trying to understand what you mean. Will my tiny little 16 y/o flyer (that looks like she's 10) be scored differently b/c she looks younger?

Yes. I have had to teams in the same level a youth team and a senior team the senior team did a much more difficult pyramid but the youth team outscored them in difficulty at one particular comp. Also yes on the second part too, this is why senior teams often make their younger girls appear older. I have had judges give the exact same stunt sequence two different difficulty scores and the only noticeable difference is that one team had senior age flyers and one had youth aged flyers. I am not saying this is law and like I said I don't even think it's done on purpose most of the time, I am only speaking on things that have happened to me in the past. You are asking a human to determine whether something is hard, you are going to get subjectivity.

 

[cupieqt]

Yes. I have had to teams in the same level a youth team and a senior team the senior team did a much more difficult pyramid but the youth team outscored them in difficulty at one particular comp. Also yes on the second part too, this is why senior teams often make their younger girls appear older. I have had judges give the exact same stunt sequence two different difficulty scores and the only noticeable difference is that one team had senior age flyers and one had youth aged flyers. I am not saying this is law and like I said I don't even think it's done on purpose most of the time, I am only speaking on things that have happened to me in the past. You are asking a human to determine whether something is hard, you are going to get subjectivity.

Yikes! In all my years of coaching I've never seen proof of size discrimination in our results. I don't use flyers under the age of 10 on my sr team and they typically fit in quite nicely with the other girls so this may be why. We HAVE been beaten by teams with very small/young flyers but their teams were good too so I never attributed their success to the size of their flyers.
I hope if judges are ever turned off by a flyers size/make/model, they will let me know so I can try to change it.

No one has answered my question from above so I guess if I want to understand the difference b/w varsity and jambrands I'll have to go study the varsity scoring system. I want to know what their determining factors are in scoring.

 

[KB_Legend]

The main differences, I believe, and my program doesn't attend any JAMbrand competitions so I might be a little off, is that JAMbrands has a lot more categories. For example Varsity has "partner stunts" which includes any entries, body positions, transitions, and dismounts where as JAMbrands splits all of those categories out so you get a stunt entry score and and dismount score etc etc. I also believe the JAMbrands score sheet is a little more specific with exactly what it wants to see, and the varsity score sheet leaves more room for interpretation and creativity. There are definitely some finer points of the JAMbrands scoring system that I am not very familiar with, but I think those are the main differences

 

[cupieqt]

I know the jambrands grid says if you do xyz stunt you can score in xyz range but it's up to you to be creative in the presentation so to me that's the same.

I don't see how they're any different other than jambrands breaks down the examples and scoring range more. It def doesn't stifle our creativity. We are much more aware of what will and won't hit high ranges on their scoresheet but we aren't limited in the least on how we put together our routines.

My question is what's a determining factor to choosing between to equal teams? Is it execution? Creativity? Difficulty. When both have the whole package, one extra body position, jump in a combo or pyramid release move may be the only thing that separates them. How hard are they on dance sections? Do they break down level and formation changes or is it just overall impression and execution?

 

[KB_Legend]

Well I don't think there is ever two equal teams... Even teams that score very close in the end generally have a little bit of separation in the individual categories...

And as far as "choosing between two teams", that's just not how it works, at any competition on any score sheet... Or at least it shouldn't. The competition companies job is to create a score sheet that they feel will reward the type of routine they want to see. The judges job is to execute that scoresheet, they read the rubric, they are told in judges meetings how to interpret that rubric and score sheet, and then they assign point values based on what the score sheet calls for. The scoresheet picks the winner, no human being, at a reputable competition, is actually assigning placements. So if a judge is doing their job correctly they are making sure that each team gets the exact score they deserve, at no point are they picking a winner.

 

[cupieqt]

Well I don't think there is ever two equal teams... Even teams that score very close in the end generally have a little bit of separation in the individual categories...

And as far as "choosing between two teams", that's just not how it works, at any competition on any score sheet... Or at least it shouldn't. The competition companies job is to create a score sheet that they feel will reward the type of routine they want to see. The judges job is to execute that scoresheet, they read the rubric, they are told in judges meetings how to interpret that rubric and score sheet, and then they assign point values based on what the score sheet calls for. The scoresheet picks the winner, no human being, at a reputable competition, is actually assigning placements. So if a judge is doing their job correctly they are making sure that each team gets the exact score they deserve, at no point are they picking a winner.

This is why I like the more specific grid. It makes it very easy to determine why or why not someone placed where they did. I agree that no two teams are really all that alike, I just know there are posters on here that love to give you impossible scenarios so I was trying to give a very specific "what if". At the end of the day, I will put my teams against any scoresheet b/c I know we can hit and execute difficulty and our presentation is pretty darn good too. I think scoring is becoming more sophisticated overall among the different brands out there....now if we can just get everyone to agree on a universal scoresheet....

 

[yojaehs]

Here is what I tell my team and that I will advise ANY coach to tell their team, there is ONLY ONE part of the score sheet that you have 100% control over, deductions! The rest, we do our best. If the score sheet shows a "0" in the deduction column then I am a happy coach and they should be happy as well. We can learn from comments and scores in the other categories but ultimately that is out of my hands. However I will say that I agree with 100% of anything BlueCat says about score sheets!

 

[cupieqt]

Here is what I tell my team and that I will advise ANY coach to tell their team, there is ONLY ONE part of the score sheet that you have 100% control over, deductions! The rest, we do our best. If the score sheet shows a "0" in the deduction column then I am a happy coach and they should be happy as well. We can learn from comments and scores in the other categories but ultimately that is out of my hands. However I will say that I agree with 100% of anything BlueCat says about score sheets!

me too