All-Star Doral Coaches Meeting This Week

[xtremeteal4life]

This is sad.

No, what's sad are the statistics regarding how many females and males under the age of 18 will be sexually harassed, molested, and/or sexually abused in some way. "Approximately 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 6 boys are sexually abused before the age of 18; 93% of juvenile sexual assault victims know their attacker, 34.2% of attackers were family members and 58.7% were acquaintances and only 7% of the perpetrators were strangers to the victim."

I applaud parents who keep such a close eye on their children bc statistically THEY are one of the main key components as to the prevalence of these unfortunate and sad statistics.

"Studies have not found differences in the prevalence of child sexual abuse among different social classes or races. However, parental inadequacy, unavailability, conflict and a poor parent-child relationship are among the characteristics that distinguish children at risk of being sexually abused"

 

[luvhim381]

Can you pretty please with sugar on top find out for me how to get credentialed as a coach while not associated with any gym? Is it even possible? I've gone through many rounds with a USASF rep and can't get an answer.

Private message me and I can get that information to you.

 

[BlueCat]

Two questions for you:

1) Do you think that a problem exists and if so, that by simply seperating the 14 year old from the IOC team that will fix the problem? My point is that if there is an issue within a given gym then it won't matter what team the kids are on, the problem will remain.

2) Did USASF make this rule for safety reasons?

I do agree that you can't have different rules for different programs which is not where I intended to go.

On a side note, I do actually find these conversations enjoyable.

1.) I don't think that every division should simply be open to everyone. There have to be SOME guidelines as to which athletes can enter a division. Given that, there has to be a line drawn somewhere. No matter where you draw that line, there will be some athletes who barely miss that cut and view the line as unfairly singling them out. I don't know if 14, 15, 16 or 17 is the perfect cutoff, but there has be a minimum age.

2.) Yes, I believe that the USASF made this particular change for safety reasons. There is no set of rules that will completely eliminate the possibility for bad things to happen, but they are trying to create the best compromise between overall safety and allowing gyms the freedom to set up teams in a way that is viable for them.

 

[shadow]

I realize the Olympics is a far reaching dream for cheerleading today but the bottom age to compete in the Olympics is 16, every country. There is no top age. That might be an age that is acceptable regardless of country.

 

[MyDaughterCheers]

No, what's sad are the statistics regarding how many females and males under the age of 18 will be sexually harassed, molested, and/or sexually abused in some way. "Approximately 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 6 boys are sexually abused before the age of 18; 93% of juvenile sexual assault victims know their attacker, 34.2% of attackers were family members and 58.7% were acquaintances and only 7% of the perpetrators were strangers to the victim."

I applaud parents who keep such a close eye on their children bc statistically THEY are one of the main key components as to the prevalence of these unfortunate and sad statistics.

"Studies have not found differences in the prevalence of child sexual abuse among different social classes or races. However, parental inadequacy, unavailability, conflict and a poor parent-child relationship are among the characteristics that distinguish children at risk of being sexually abused"

Woah, you clearly took my post wrong. What is sad to me is that is even has to be a consideration in our children's lives. I think we are saying the same thing.

 

[yojaehs]

Does anyone know if any other topics were addressed at Doral?...seems like a lot more was needed to be discussed other that the international division age grid...worlds venue? Sandbagging? Unified score sheet?

Ok, this is going to be another LONG post, so I'd like to apologize up front lol. 3 things were seriously discussed in regards to scoring/judging.
#1 - Two panels to score EACH routine. One panel judges LIVE and and ONLY judges execution. Panel Two watches a video of the routine and ONLY scores difficulty, and counts the number of skills.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE this idea ( kingston and I have discussed this several times and he can go even more in depth better than I can). But I will post concerns with this idea - 1. Time, EP's seemed to be in favor of the idea but are concerned of how long the "video review" may take. 2. There currently is no "code of elements/points" meaning who is to say a full up immediate is worth more points than a double-up etc. etc.
#2 - A judges association. Again, I LOVE LOVE LOVE this idea. However, the concerns are WHO governs this association? How does it get started? It was discussed that "experts" in their field (ex. Debbie Love for tumbling, Ceacoach pyramids, Peter Lezin stunts, Ray Jasper dance etc. etc.) meet with ALL judges and discuss judging in those areas. Those "experts" will lead the BEGINNING of the Judges Association and meet with Professional judges and at least ONE of those Professional Judges MUST be on a Bid panel, this would be the START of the association. I think it will take time and will take time, but again I LOVE the idea.
Other things suggested that the judges association would "address" and help with.
- Time on the panel (meaning breaks, when they arrive before the event etc.)
-Appropriate panel (meaning your competitor isn't judging your team)
-Qualified panel (tracking judges and how they perform)
-Judges pay
#3 - Universal Score Sheet. I don't think many are against this but it has seen its resistance. EP's feel that their score sheet gives them a "competitive advantage" against other EP's. As in, they design their score sheet to what they feel THEIR customers want, which is a valid point IMO. HOWEVER if #1 and #2 are to be successful then a Universal Score Sheet is a MUST. I LOVE LOVE LOVE BlueCat score sheet solution which is a Universal Score Sheet with an EP column which would allow the EP to adjust how much they would like to weigh each division for their specific event. Again, it's BlueCat idea so I will defer to him for a deeper explanation.

IMO without ONE of these THREE they all fail.

Now with this being said, I discussed later with a few separate EP's and they mentioned that the percentage of the judging errors was so minuscule that a "judges association" they didn't feel needed, which made me step back and think. Ex. My gym has 11 teams, and we competed 10 times (110 score sheets) MAYBE 5 of those had issues (maybe) which means 105 times MY scores were correct. Is it NEEDED to have a NEW association which will inevitably have its growing pains and governing issues? I know that I and everyone else in the industry WANT IT RIGHT, but EVEN WITH #1, #2, #3 there will still be issues. Would having 1,2,3 ELIMINATE ANY AND ALL issues, NO. So I propose that EP's take an active role and publicize how their judges are doing. If an EP feels that their ratio of correctly judged routines far outweighs judges mistakes, make it public, tell me. Because I feel that knowing and EP is working hard to "get it right" would mean a lot to the industry. Also, EP's feel that they provide appropriate time and pay ( I personally don't think pay is an issue that is my concern bc if you choose to judge you know what you are getting before hand, but to have a way to EARN more pay for being a good judge, I can get behind)

I told you it would be long, so I'm sorry. I know that we ALL want it RIGHT. I think that 1,2,3 are all GREAT suggestions. It did make me step back and think more after talking to EP's that feel that the LEGITIMATE scoring issues is very, very small in comparison to the number where the judges got it right. It made me think, I hope it makes you too!

 

[idrive]

1.) I don't think that every division should simply be open to everyone. There have to be SOME guidelines as to which athletes can enter a division. Given that, there has to be a line drawn somewhere. No matter where you draw that line, there will be some athletes who barely miss that cut and view the line as unfairly singling them out. I don't know if 14, 15, 16 or 17 is the perfect cutoff, but there has be a minimum age.

2.) Yes, I believe that the USASF made this particular change for safety reasons. There is no set of rules that will completely eliminate the possibility for bad things to happen, but they are trying to create the best compromise between overall safety and allowing gyms the freedom to set up teams in a way that is viable for them.

Once again thanks for the input. On point #2, do you know if the safety reason is one
that is a perception or realized?

 

[12stepCheermom]

Ok, this is going to be another LONG post, so I'd like to apologize up front lol. 3 things were seriously discussed in regards to scoring/judging.
#1 - Two panels to score EACH routine. One panel judges LIVE and and ONLY judges execution. Panel Two watches a video of the routine and ONLY scores difficulty, and counts the number of skills.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE this idea ( kingston and I have discussed this several times and he can go even more in depth better than I can). But I will post concerns with this idea - 1. Time, EP's seemed to be in favor of the idea but are concerned of how long the "video review" may take. 2. There currently is no "code of elements/points" meaning who is to say a full up immediate is worth more points than a double-up etc. etc.
#2 - A judges association. Again, I LOVE LOVE LOVE this idea. However, the concerns are WHO governs this association? How does it get started? It was discussed that "experts" in their field (ex. Debbie Love for tumbling, Ceacoach pyramids, Peter Lezin stunts, Ray Jasper dance etc. etc.) meet with ALL judges and discuss judging in those areas. Those "experts" will lead the BEGINNING of the Judges Association and meet with Professional judges and at least ONE of those Professional Judges MUST be on a Bid panel, this would be the START of the association. I think it will take time and will take time, but again I LOVE the idea.
Other things suggested that the judges association would "address" and help with.
- Time on the panel (meaning breaks, when they arrive before the event etc.)
-Appropriate panel (meaning your competitor isn't judging your team)
-Qualified panel (tracking judges and how they perform)
-Judges pay
#3 - Universal Score Sheet. I don't think many are against this but it has seen its resistance. EP's feel that their score sheet gives them a "competitive advantage" against other EP's. As in, they design their score sheet to what they feel THEIR customers want, which is a valid point IMO. HOWEVER if #1 and #2 are to be successful then a Universal Score Sheet is a MUST. I LOVE LOVE LOVE BlueCat score sheet solution which is a Universal Score Sheet with an EP column which would allow the EP to adjust how much they would like to weigh each division for their specific event. Again, it's BlueCat idea so I will defer to him for a deeper explanation.

IMO without ONE of these THREE they all fail.

Now with this being said, I discussed later with a few separate EP's and they mentioned that the percentage of the judging errors was so minuscule that a "judges association" they didn't feel needed, which made me step back and think. Ex. My gym has 11 teams, and we competed 10 times (110 score sheets) MAYBE 5 of those had issues (maybe) which means 105 times MY scores were correct. Is it NEEDED to have a NEW association which will inevitably have its growing pains and governing issues? I know that I and everyone else in the industry WANT IT RIGHT, but EVEN WITH #1, #2, #3 there will still be issues. Would having 1,2,3 ELIMINATE ANY AND ALL issues, NO. So I propose that EP's take an active role and publicize how their judges are doing. If an EP feels that their ratio of correctly judged routines far outweighs judges mistakes, make it public, tell me. Because I feel that knowing and EP is working hard to "get it right" would mean a lot to the industry. Also, EP's feel that they provide appropriate time and pay ( I personally don't think pay is an issue that is my concern bc if you choose to judge you know what you are getting before hand, but to have a way to EARN more pay for being a good judge, I can get behind)

I told you it would be long, so I'm sorry. I know that we ALL want it RIGHT. I think that 1,2,3 are all GREAT suggestions. It did make me step back and think more after talking to EP's that feel that the LEGITIMATE scoring issues is very, very small in comparison to the number where the judges got it right. It made me think, I hope it makes you too!

Thanks for the update. I'm loving the conversations they're having, I just hope they stick. I like your idea about the EPs putting out their percentages correct (although you can make stats say just about anything you want) but if the airlines release their on time arrival percentages, why can't they? Transparency would help people think they're not getting the random shaft.

I even like the EP column for a universal score sheet. The score sheets are still the same but if you want to go to an event where stunts weight more than tumbling, then you can pick that EP and vice versa. That's a good idea to get standardization with flexibility. It's at least a step in the right direction.

I absolutely love the two judging panel idea. You can't judge difficulty live. That's a perfect solution. Time would be a factor and I've always said there needed to be a standard menu of what skills raw scores should be worth, that would have to get put together, but again...the conversation is headed in the right direction.

 

[yojaehs]

Thanks for the update. I'm loving the conversations they're having, I just hope they stick. I like your idea about the EPs putting out their percentages correct (although you can make stats say just about anything you want) but if the airlines release their on time arrival percentages, why can't they? Transparency would help people think they're not getting the random shaft.

I even like the EP column for a universal score sheet. The score sheets are still the same but if you want to go to an event where stunts weight more than tumbling, then you can pick that EP and vice versa. That's a good idea to get standardization with flexibility. It's at least a step in the right direction.

I absolutely love the two judging panel idea. You can't judge difficulty live. That's a perfect solution. Time would be a factor and I've always said there needed to be a standard menu of what skills raw scores should be worth, that would have to get put together, but again...the conversation is headed in the right direction.

See, ALL problems solved bahaha.

 

[5-6-7-8]

Love what is being discussed!!

EP column - such a simple way to let each EP have their "unique" event, but something that doesn't really matter to a judge.

Two panel idea is great as well. I know kingston had a thread about this at some point (or something similar).

And I would add that I think most people understand that judges can / will make mistakes, but maybe there needs to be a more formalized dispute process. Too many times I have heard of instances where coaches bring up an error and are pretty much told, "oh well." I understand not wanting every coach to come back with what they think is an error, but some balance needs to occur for legitimate scoring issues. This may be addressed with the 2nd panel as well (hopefully fewer errors in the more objective parts of the scoresheet?) Would deductions be handled by the "live" panel or the video review panel?

(Sorry, I just rambled a bit.)

 

[BlueCat]

Once again thanks for the input. On point #2, do you know if the safety reason is one
that is a perception or realized?

I do not know of any specific cases of children that were severely harmed directly from being on an international team with 19-30 year olds. However, the USASF tries to be proactive instead of reactive when it comes to the safety of the participants. That is true of many of the safety guidelines.

It is not a perfect process, by any means. The intent, however, is to keep the kids safe and in as positive an environment as is realistically possible.

 

[yojaehs]

Love what is being discussed!!

EP column - such a simple way to let each EP have their "unique" event, but something that doesn't really matter to a judge.

Two panel idea is great as well. I know kingston had a thread about this at some point (or something similar).

And I would add that I think most people understand that judges can / will make mistakes, but maybe there needs to be a more formalized dispute process. Too many times I have heard of instances where coaches bring up an error and are pretty much told, "oh well." I understand not wanting every coach to come back with what they think is an error, but some balance needs to occur for legitimate scoring issues. This may be addressed with the 2nd panel as well (hopefully fewer errors in the more objective parts of the scoresheet?) Would deductions be handled by the "live" panel or the video review panel?

(Sorry, I just rambled a bit.)

I think that previously stated 1,2,3 helps LEGITIMATE concerns and issues. Inevitably there are many competitions all over the country and there are more uneducated coaches than educated. Is there anything that can eliminate a coach from complaining because their standing tucks weren't scored correctly on their level 2 team (extreme case, but inevitably this happens and probably happens WAY more than valid complaints). So from and EP side (not that I care, I only care that they get it right) what is their motivation to work on scoring issues if no matter what they do, stupid coaches exist and take up majority of their time so dealing with legit issues are washed out? This is why I propose that EP's track what they do correct, heck make complaints available to the public (as we ask that EP's make scores public) so if a coach is stupid, it's made public. I want the scores right, I want to promote correct judging, I ALSO want to help EP's to WANT to make it better. Also, I'd like to help eliminate stupid coaches (that might be a reach though)

 

[kristenthegreat]

I think that previously stated 1,2,3 helps LEGITIMATE concerns and issues. Inevitably there are many competitions all over the country and there are more uneducated coaches than educated. Is there anything that can eliminate a coach from complaining because their standing tucks weren't scored correctly on their level 2 team (extreme case, but inevitably this happens and probably happens WAY more than valid complaints). So from and EP side (not that I care, I only care that they get it right) what is their motivation to work on scoring issues if no matter what they do, stupid coaches exist and take up majority of their time so dealing with legit issues are washed out? This is why I propose that EP's track what they do correct, heck make complaints available to the public (as we ask that EP's make scores public) so if a coach is stupid, it's made public. I want the scores right, I want to promote correct judging, I ALSO want to help EP's to WANT to make it better. Also, I'd like to help eliminate stupid coaches (that might be a reach though)

You can't fix everything :D

But seriously. If I were a coach, I'd like to see posted stats of a competitions scoring record, stupid complaints vs. legit ones and how they were handled. I'm more likely to trust them and bring my team there, and they can count on a few extra dollars from me. Truthfully, I think less of competition choice nowadays is 'score sheet variety' and more 'closest, cheapest, most competition with consistent scoring.'

Or, they could look at it as: If their 'scoresheet difference' is taken away, what better advertising than consistent results, reliable customer service, and complaints that are handled fairly and on time? It's a GREAT bit of PR- use it!

 

[Ceacoach]

Top Ten Things I took home From Doral:

1) Worlds is Saturday, Sunday, and Monday
* that frees up the ICU for Friday and offers an entire feasible day for Prelims ( Saturday) that won't have to share venues with the ICU.

2) They are considering lowering the number of teams necessary to have a prelim round. Specifically Medium CoEd that had 37 in the division last year.

3) Worlds will still have 10 teams max on Monday the final day in all divisions and with even more emphasis on production for the athletes.

4) NACCC believes it is time to deliver the universal scoresheet to the masses under the masterful direction of John Metz. The idea has gained ground for years, now the powers that be will struggle with who wins out the end on the final decisions for each category, rubric, etc. Could be the best thing for the industry in five years..may also mean scores of unintended consequences.

5) Allstar Prep is a viable division that is gaining ground all over the country and we should start as many teams as possible not only to help grow grassroots participation but to offer a lower priced alternative for our customers.

6) The quest to be "annointed" as an Olympic Event continues to permeate many decisions from the top down that we can't even fully begin to understand. For instance, USAG and Ballroom Dance are threatened by the similarities "Cheer" has as a discipline to their long standing "Olympic" caliber sports. Note: We are now officially calling ourselves "Cheer" and no longer "Cheerleading"

7) The new proposed rule changes for 2013-2014 especially in partner stunting make me want to fast forward to next summer...really needed...really exciting.

8) Worlds Venue is not going to change until at least 2014 if ever. They are making steps to add an Awards Arena and sell "session tickets" to clear out the milkhouse in three sessions on Finals Day.

9) Incomplete double fulls will massively affect your score so make sure this never happens.

10) The bugs are not playing around in Miami...there are no plans to change the membership of the Board of Directors ( outside of the coaches being rotated as always )...and the Independent Event Producers are passionate, inspired, and have a revived sense of Entrepreneurialism that makes me believe in the future all over again...they deserve a hard look at their events this season. They stood their ground in Doral and are united with new found determination and innovation...exactly what we all need right now. Additionally, event producers in general show a great deal of unity to grow participation and work together.

I think the USASF learned a lot as in organization still in its Infant stages and now is moving towards being an adolescent shedding itself of issues of the past, stronger to face new issues not yet encountered...Its our job to be positive, work together and help the sport we all love continue to reach as many lives as possible.

 

[quitthedrama]

it sounds like some great changes are being proposed and/or implemented, but really - could they have at least considered the average working Joe (aka ME) when they made the decision to change Worlds to Monday? This makes things more difficult on so many levels. With any luck I will win the lottery and not have to worry about this silly work thing that keeps interfering with the cheer thing.