All-Star General Legality Discussion: "the Grey Area"

[AshleyErin]

My issue isn't necessarily the gray area in legalities. It is the Black and white. I don't understand how people can read the rules and then do something that is clearly stated as illegal. Half of the things below I could show to someone with no cheer knowledge and have them rule on the legality.

Here are several issues that a few coaches seem to have ignored this year.

• Extended stunts require spots
• you need 3 catchers for braced inversions
• catchers can't be involved in other choreography and can't move
• downward inversions can't travel down while inverted
• level 4 downward inversions can't go above prep level

This point is especially evident this year. So many level 4 teams are attempting downward inversions and bases are simply not paying attention (or it is choreographed) and extending their arms. It urks me that teams aren't called on it more often.

 

[PCMegan]

In case the link supplied to you doesn't answer, let me try. The release above 18 inches rule says that if thefeet, knees whatever are lifted, the 18 inches ISN'T measured from the bottom of where the feet ARE, it is measured 18 inches from where the bottom of the feet WOULD BE if they legs were straight down. So while those toe touches appear to be 3 feet above the bases, that is in the toe touch position. Picture where their feet would be if they were not in the toe touch position, but simply tossed up with their legs straight down. THAT is where the measurement is. I know...it's weird, and almost impossible for a safety judge to know EXACTLY where the feet would be, but I would say Brandon's is legal because if they had their legs straight down, they honestly would not be all that high above the bases. It's the position that makes it look SO high. Did that ramble? Or did that explain it at all? LOL

I completely understand now after reading this new rule. BUT my problem lies in the fact that this WAS illegal last year. (And actually illegal until 10-28-11).
The rule prior to that date was only this: "Release moves are allowed but must not exceed more than eighteen inches above extended arm level. Example: tic-tocks are allowed."

Now since 10-28-11 the rules suddenly change. As it states on the USASF rule page that RED BOLD are changes made on that date.

My question is - why the sudden change? People, teams, coaches have been trying this type of stunt/relase move in past seasons, but it was called ILLEGAL when they sent in videos to make sure, due to the height exceeding 18 inches above the bases hands.

?????

 

[Deleted member 15]

I completely understand now after reading this new rule. BUT my problem lies in the fact that this WAS illegal last year. (And actually illegal until 10-28-11).
The rule prior to that date was only this: "Release moves are allowed but must not exceed more than eighteen inches above extended arm level. Example: tic-tocks are allowed."

Now since 10-28-11 the rules suddenly change. As it states on the USASF rule page that RED BOLD are changes made on that date.

My question is - why the sudden change? People, teams, coaches have been trying this type of stunt/relase move in past seasons, but it was called ILLEGAL when they sent in videos to make sure, due to the height exceeding 18 inches above the bases hands.

?????

The rule was interpreted/enforced the same last year and this year. The red was added to clarify to coaches how it was being interpreted/enforced by rules officials.

At the risk of bring up old stuff, go back to CEA/Maddie's ball 360 a couple years ago. It was legal then because the 18" rule has been enforced based on the clarification more recently added.

 

[King]

The rule was interpreted/enforced the same last year and this year. The red was added to clarify to coaches how it was being interpreted/enforced by rules officials.

At the risk of bring up old stuff, go back to CEA/Maddie's ball 360 a couple years ago. It was legal then because the 18" rule has been enforced based on the clarification more recently added.

I think the board discussion created the clarification.

 

[socratesofcheer]

Since this topic seems to be revolving around the TG and Brandon stunts, I have a question:

HOW does anyone know that the stunts in question are not safe?

Perhaps (@drkillusions or @drkillusionz can answer) the stunt is extremely safe due to the grips/number of catchers/ or whatever the coaches used to teach the skill.

I know i have seen some very simple tic tocs that turned into a potential massive tragedy, doesn't mean that that particular stunt should be deemed unsafe.

 

[cheerinfo]

I completely understand now after reading this new rule. BUT my problem lies in the fact that this WAS illegal last year. (And actually illegal until 10-28-11).
The rule prior to that date was only this: "Release moves are allowed but must not exceed more than eighteen inches above extended arm level. Example: tic-tocks are allowed."

Now since 10-28-11 the rules suddenly change. As it states on the USASF rule page that RED BOLD are changes made on that date.

My question is - why the sudden change? People, teams, coaches have been trying this type of stunt/relase move in past seasons, but it was called ILLEGAL when they sent in videos to make sure, due to the height exceeding 18 inches above the bases hands.

?????

As Andre said, this rule was enforced the same exact way last year. It was not changed as of 10/28/11. If it was called illegal in the past, it's because it was done differently, thrown higher, etc. But this is not a new rule this year.

 

[yojaehs]

Since this topic seems to be revolving around the TG and Brandon stunts, I have a question:

HOW does anyone know that the stunts in question are not safe?

Perhaps (@drkillusions or @drkillusionz can answer) the stunt is extremely safe due to the grips/number of catchers/ or whatever the coaches used to teach the skill.

I know i have seen some very simple tic tocs that turned into a potential massive tragedy, doesn't mean that that particular stunt should be deemed unsafe.

This is the reason I commented on this thread in the first place. I want to ensure all that read this that "Brandon's stunt" is not dangerous, it's hard. The progression to reach this stunt is difficult and takes time to learn, dangerous, no. As for TG's stunt I can't speak for but I'm sure that @drkillusionz will be happy to clarify.

 

[AndyT_T]

Speaking of "Grey Area/Loophole" Stunts; I see this stunt all the time and I was wondering if y'all know why it's legal. It's where the flyer is in prone and touches her hands to the floor and they throw her and she does a front flip and they catch her in smush (Or, in the case of tg, an extension).
Since she flips with no connection, why is it legal?

 

[Deleted member 15]

Speaking of "Grey Area/Loophole" Stunts; I see this stunt all the time and I was wondering if y'all know why it's legal. It's where the flyer is in prone and touches her hands to the floor and they throw her and she does a front flip and they catch her in smush (Or, in the case of tg, an extension).
Since she flips with no connection, why is it legal?

If you start inverted getting to your feet is not considered a flip, even if you take the long way.

 

[AndyT_T]

If you start inverted getting to your feet is not considered a flip, even if you take the long way.

Even if she is level with the ground and has her hands on the floor? Still considered legal? Legitttt

 

[Deleted member 15]

Even if she is level with the ground and has her hands on the floor? Still considered legal? Legitttt

Starting inverted is an important part of this.

 

[AndyT_T]

Starting inverted is an important part of this.

So, :30 is ok? Shes not really upside down, more like 45 degrees...

 

[Deleted member 15]

So, :30 is ok? Shes not really upside down, more like 45 degrees...

She started inverted. Inverted = Hips & 1 Foot above head (per the now missing in action USASF Glossary), not necessarily upside down like a handstand.

They way they did it, bouncing before "flipping" is a downward inversion that stops inverted.

 

[brandon0309]

Since this topic seems to be revolving around the TG and Brandon stunts, I have a question:

HOW does anyone know that the stunts in question are not safe?

Perhaps (@drkillusions or @drkillusionz can answer) the stunt is extremely safe due to the grips/number of catchers/ or whatever the coaches used to teach the skill.

I know i have seen some very simple tic tocs that turned into a potential massive tragedy, doesn't mean that that particular stunt should be deemed unsafe.

I completely agree. I could see people calling it unsafe IF brandon or top gun had gone out on the mat with these stunts and they were falling all over the place..then you could call the stunt not safe/ scary/ whatever. Watch the athletes again.. the stunts hit, they maintain great control, && without struggle they move on to the next skill. Its clear they have worked these skills && have just as good control over these skills as they do with easier skills in the routine.

This is the evolution of our sport. Because things are getting more visual && complex don't turn them away. I applaud these programs b/c I am so sick of seeing every team having the same elite sequence just mixed around (being a variation of full ups, tic tocs, express ups, etc) . Thank you for your creativity! :)

In regard to the 18 inch rule (as someone stated above..) I feel like Brandon's stunt is just like Maddie's 360 ball up.. you do have to watch how hard you toss but i think the judges will classify it as legal.

 

[Gym D]

I don't think the problem necessarily lies with TG and Brandon doing these stunts... It's the gyms who don't have the qualified coaches that encourage/push their athletes to go the skills that the other gyms are doing BECAUSE they saw TG/BRANDON whoever else do things like that.. when in reality their athletes aren't ready/comfortable to be doing those skills.

Brandon has ALWAYS been amazing stunters in every aspect because they have great coaches for it, same goes for Victor/Kristen, and i haven't seen anything come close to dropping/inuring those girls during that section.

It's not always what you teach, it's how you teach it.