High School Hs Higher Stunting Difficulty

[FamousxMindset]

I get that, I'm more critical of the "progressions" that are allowed when you consider the big picture of all star levels.

I agree its very flawed but to have honest, consistent, and appropriate level progressions we would need way more than just five levels, but I can't realistically see that happening.

 

[FamousxMindset]

It's dangerous and ridiculous, and it contributes to the idea that "as long as it hits, who cares what it looks like." The all star industry shuns proper progressions and strict technique in favor of circus routines that are slopped out.

There is a paradigm shift through the sport the emphasis is becoming execution over everything else. Hence why we have a monthly debate up here in the all-star forum about sandbagging, cross overs, what is a true level ____ athlete. It's a slow and painful process but it is happening.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I agree its very flawed but to have honest, consistent, and appropriate level progressions we would need way more than just five levels, but I can't realistically see that happening.

You might not need more than five levels. You might need a scoring system that is more critical of execution and less rewarding of difficulty.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

There is a paradigm shift through the sport the emphasis is becoming execution over everything else. Hence why we have a monthly debate up here in the all-star forum about sandbagging, cross overs, what is a true level ____ athlete. It's a slow and painful process but it is happening.

Heck, you get a 4.0 out of 5 possible points for throwing tosses that aren't even "level appropriate." That's being rewarded for having no difficulty.

 

[FamousxMindset]

You might not need more than five levels. You might need a scoring system that is more critical of execution and less rewarding of difficulty.

As it stands its 50/50 regarding execution and difficulty but the biggest problem I've encountered this season is that everyone's idea of a well executed skill varies way too much. For one judge its arm and head placement in tumbling skills, the next judge is flexed toes and ankles. Until we as a sport can literally write out what defines a skill as well executed your execution scores will be doing the Tango all season from comp to comp.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

As it stands its 50/50 regarding execution and difficulty but the biggest problem I've encountered this season is that everyone's idea of a well executed skill varies way too much. For one judge its arm and head placement in tumbling skills, the next judge is flexed toes and ankles. Until we as a sport can literally write out what defines a skill as well executed your execution scores will be doing the Tango all season from comp to comp.

That's not exactly what I mean. Let me give you an example from the school side:

At UCA high school nationals, the stunt difficulty score ranges from 0-10. Based on my review of more than 200 scores across 2 seasons in 4 different divisions, 75-80% of teams fall in a range from 5-8. Only the best of the best score more than 8. Only the truly tragic score less than 5. I don't know if this is by design, or if it's a natural statistical occurrence, but if you consider the nature of statistics, it makes pretty decent sense. So 75-80% of the teams are within 3 points of each other on difficulty.

If you do not execute well, your performance score takes a pretty decent hit. Then on top of that, if you actually drop, you lose 2 points out of that 3 point range.

The end result is that at UCA high school nationals, your difficulty can be completely wiped out by a failure to execute effectively. I've followed high school nationals for 20 years. I've seen teams advance through the rounds based on nothing more than their decision to put skills on the floor that they can hit. We did it this year with one of my teams that had some rough luck leading into the weekend. We advanced with lower difficulty scores because we hit and the teams below us did not.

In the all star world, I've never seen a team truly rewarded for hitting their routine. I see them drop a place or two based on a deduction, but never see a true reward for a solid, well-executed routine. You just don't see a team advance up the rankings unless they are performing elite level skills.

 

[coacha]

I had to google what a cinder track was :help: Those look awful! Does it hurt your kids hands/ankles when they tumble?

We rarely tumble on it, because yes, it hurts to tumble on. It's also filthy, white uniforms aren't an option.

What state are you in? In my state everyone does baskets, but this will be our first year going to nationals for HS so I don't really know what to expect.

Edit: if your kids are planning to do college cheer it might be worth it to spend a practice working them even if it's just straight rides and you never do them outside of practice, just so they get a feel for them. My college had kids throw tuck baskets at tryouts, and it would be a big jump to go from no baskets to tuck baskets in one day :eek: I worked with a graduating senior earlier this week on arabesque double downs last practice just so when she got to tryouts for college she would be prepared for them lol

I'm in Pa. And the plan is to continue ignoring baskets. Of my kids who could end up cheering in college, the schools that most will end up at are non-competitive state schools. The few that have the money to attend other options or the skills to cheer at bigger programs have access to numerous all star programs to work on their skills. As a program, baskets just aren't worth the practice time as things currently stand.

 

[LaurenYHScoach]

We rarely tumble on it, because yes, it hurts to tumble on. It's also filthy, white uniforms aren't an option.



I'm in Pa. And the plan is to continue ignoring baskets. Of my kids who could end up cheering in college, the schools that most will end up at are non-competitive state schools. The few that have the money to attend other options or the skills to cheer at bigger programs have access to numerous all star programs to work on their skills. As a program, baskets just aren't worth the practice time as things currently stand.

Agreed! We moved one of our teams to compete at UCA this year and once we got done with football season those girls never did a basket again. We will not spend much time on them next year. They do like doing them at football, but even then it is only when we bring a mat, (Not all games) so it isnt really worth the time anymore.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Agreed! We moved one of our teams to compete at UCA this year and once we got done with football season those girls never did a basket again. We will not spend much time on them next year. They do like doing them at football, but even then it is only when we bring a mat, (Not all games) so it isnt really worth the time anymore.

Baskets = too much risk, too little reward

 

[AndyT_T]

Edit: decided I had posted too much in a row and deleted my novel :p

 

[AndyT_T]

That's not exactly what I mean. Let me give you an example from the school side:

At UCA high school nationals, the stunt difficulty score ranges from 0-10. Based on my review of more than 200 scores across 2 seasons in 4 different divisions, 75-80% of teams fall in a range from 5-8. Only the best of the best score more than 8. Only the truly tragic score less than 5. I don't know if this is by design, or if it's a natural statistical occurrence, but if you consider the nature of statistics, it makes pretty decent sense. So 75-80% of the teams are within 3 points of each other on difficulty.

If you do not execute well, your performance score takes a pretty decent hit. Then on top of that, if you actually drop, you lose 2 points out of that 3 point range.

The end result is that at UCA high school nationals, your difficulty can be completely wiped out by a failure to execute effectively. I've followed high school nationals for 20 years. I've seen teams advance through the rounds based on nothing more than their decision to put skills on the floor that they can hit. We did it this year with one of my teams that had some rough luck leading into the weekend. We advanced with lower difficulty scores because we hit and the teams below us did not.

In the all star world, I've never seen a team truly rewarded for hitting their routine. I see them drop a place or two based on a deduction, but never see a true reward for a solid, well-executed routine. You just don't see a team advance up the rankings unless they are performing elite level skills.

Vizion 20/20 placed so well both seasons because of technique and execution scores. Rays consistently does well even when theyre doing simpler skills (peach) because of execution and technique scores. Lady Bullets execution score was a big factor in them losing to generals.

If anything execution is getting more important every year. Now that the scoring rubric is more clearly defined with elite skills (basically the equivalent of compulsory) and level appropriate skills basically everyone who's anyone is scoring in the 4.6 range in difficulty in most areas. Because of that technique and execution is more and more every season the deciding factor, especially once you get into the top 10 category.
The difference is that you have to have elite skills and perform them well.
I don't think teams should be able to progress without elite skills. If you can't perform the elite skills at that level go down a level - which is what many people are doing. There are tons of level 1/2/3 teams with squad elite tumbling passes. It's not because those kids couldn't do a layout (or at least what our sport considers a layout), it's because a straight layout doesn't cut it anymore. At the gym where I used to do all star most of the level 3 girls had a standing tuck and a layout that they were working on perfecting.

The biggest thing is it's apples to oranges, HS has to reward technique because it doesn't have different divisions in the same way all star does, so if you can't do elite skills you can't just drop down a level. Because of that the HS scoresheet rewards both elite skills done successfully, and simpler skills performed perfectly.

 

[AndyT_T]

It's not worth it.

There should never be a time when a coach, or anyone else, asks a kid to go from "no baskets" to "tuck baskets" in one day. Using a flipping toss as a tryout skill is taking on a huge liability for a skill that is actually rather easily taught with proper progressions.

Flipping pyramids are not a solid precursor to flipping tosses either. There is little similarity between a braced flip and a free-flying flip.

Having the back throw from the ankles and assist a double twist is poor technique and does not help a flyer learn to do the skill properly. If the only reason a girl can get around twice in a double is because she's got 15 feet of air time in a basket, she's not twisting properly.

They're not asking kids to go from no baskets to tuck baskets in one day. They're expecting kids to come in with basket experience and pyramid inversion experience.

Many schools and gyms have backs throw from ankles in baskets. It's not poor technique its smart cheerleading. Why is throwing under and from butt okay but ankles is not? If I have a flyer who has troubles standing up quick enough I put the back at butt. If I have a flyer who has a hard time keeping her feet together and not rolling off the bases hands on the throw, or who has troubles in a twist, I put the back at ankles. If I have a flyer who does a good job but the bases are breaking too low or too are too slow off the bottom I put the back underneath the hands. How are any of those things different/bad technique?

In college for double baskets the front spot throws the toes to help the flyer get her feet pulled through, is that bad technique? How is that any different?

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

They're not asking kids to go from no baskets to tuck baskets in one day. They're expecting kids to come in with basket experience and pyramid inversion experience.

Many schools and gyms have backs throw from ankles in baskets. It's not poor technique its smart cheerleading. Why is throwing under and from butt okay but ankles is not? If I have a flyer who has troubles standing up quick enough I put the back at butt. If I have a flyer who has a hard time keeping her feet together and not rolling off the bases hands on the throw, or who has troubles in a twist, I put the back at ankles. If I have a flyer who does a good job but the bases are breaking too low or too are too slow off the bottom I put the back underneath the hands. How are any of those things different/bad technique?

In college for double baskets the front spot throws the toes to help the flyer get her feet pulled through, is that bad technique? How is that any different?

It's not smart cheerleading just because a lot of gyms do it. It's not ok for a back to throw under a butt or from the ankles. The back belongs under the toss. That is the only location for the back's hands that allows them to mechanically increase height on the toss.

If you have a flyer who is having trouble standing up aggressively, teach them to stand up quickly. Don't use the back as a means to Band-Aid the flyer's poor technique.

If you have a flyer who is having trouble keeping her feet together, rolling off the bases hands (whatever that means), or twisting, teach the flyer to do those things correctly. Don't use the back as a means to Band-Aid the flyer's poor technique.

If the bases are breaking too low, or are too slow off the bottom, they need to learn to throw correctly before you add the tossing assistance from the back or a front. Don't use the back as a means to Band-Aid their poor technique.

Ask a flyer doing double baskets if she wants anyone doing anything with her toes. If she doesn't slap the taste out of your mouth and tell you all she needs is the added height from those people throwing straight up the way they are supposed to throw, then she SUCKS at double baskets. She has no business doing them.

All of the things you just described are a means of cheating stunts to make up for poorly taught skills and poor technique.

edited to fix a typo

 

[coacha]

I don't at all agree with the insinuation that baskets are an inherently dangerous skill, especially when schools are doing cradles and full downs from extended stunts. If you can do an extension full down there is no reason you shouldn't be able to execute at a minimum a full twist basket (I mean how often do HS baskets get that much higher than the pop from an extension).

I don't believe they are some scary dangerous skill. I do believe that to be performed well, they require drills, practice time and proper instruction. For my team, the reward is not worth that required time because 1)little to no reward at UCA competitions, and 2) it's useless to us for game day use. Even on our state scoresheet, there isn't a basket category.

I feel like some people in the HS part of fierce board have a really pessimistic view about cheerleading and I don't get it. I didn't come from big cheer states, but maybe I have just always been in middle of the pack cheer states and have never seen how terrible it gets, idk. But instead of being critical of skills that are allowed and removing skills that are a critical part and thereby destroying the skill progressions through to collegiate skills, I think we should be more rigorous with deductions and technique scoring to scare schools away from doing things there not ready for.

You must live in a cheer bubble. We are in the midst of the NorthBeast, and the high school that I took over 2 years ago couldn't even handle extension cradles. There are lots of talented schools around, and just as many that I see at football games that scare me and make me want to go tell their AD to ground bound them. As I'm sure you know, cheerleading requires proper coaching and instruction, and there are MANY schools that don't require cheer coaches to have any knowledge or certifications.

And for HS cheer, you have to remember that these rules also govern those non-competing schools. So, yeah, you can get rigorous with deductions and technique scoring, but that isn't a deterrent for a sideline-only school.

I get not all athletes will cheer at college, but by removing baskets completely from a HS stunt curriculum I feel your doing your athletes that DO go to college a real disservice. Even more than that, it's ignoring a key part of our sport. Tumbling is inherently dangerous, and it's possible to to be a competitively successful program without it. That doesn't mean it should be ignored though! My school will probably compete in the non tumbling divisions at nationals, but I still dedicate time to tumbling every practice because it is a huge part of the sport and I feel like I would be doing them a disservice to ignore it. It really saddens me to hear that baskets aren't on the HS national scoresheet like they are for me at the state level.

We all have to make the best decisions for our programs as a whole.

 

[dat.jpp]

It's not smart cheerleading just because a lot of gyms do it. It's not ok for a back to throw under a butt or from the ankles. The back belongs under the toss. That is the only location for the back's hands that allows them to mechanically increase height on the toss.

If you have a flyer who is having trouble standing up aggressively, teach them to stand up quickly. Don't use the back as a means to Band-Aid the flyer's poor technique.

If you have a flyer who is having trouble keeping her feet together, rolling off the bases hands (whatever that means), or twisting, teach the flyer to do those things correctly. Don't use the back as a means to Band-Aid the flyer's poor technique.

If the bases are breaking too low, or are too slow off the bottom, they need to learn to throw correctly before you add the tossing assistance from the back or a front. Don't use the back as a means to Band-Aid their poor technique.

Ask a flyer doing double baskets if she wants anyone doing anything with her toes. If she doesn't slap the taste out of your mouth and tell you all she needs is the added height from those people throwing straight up the way they are supposed to throw, then she SUCKS at double baskets. She has no business doing them.

All of the things you just described are a means of cheating stunts to make up for poorly taught skills and poor technique.

edited to fix a typo

I've always thrown a full up prep, half up extention, straight ride and non-kicking baskets by the ankles. It's alot easier to throw and more comfortable. This season is my first time ever throwing a 1 1/2 up prep from the flyers butt. I can see a probably holding the ankles if your doing a kicking basket because the flyer probably wouldn't know when exactly to kick.