All-Star Knowing There Are Illegal Athletes On Your Team

[lakerfantlc]

That is what infuritates me - that coaches are willing to take that chance. They are willing to sacrifice the entire rest of the team for that one (or two) athlete(s). I'm not sure if it's a god complex that some of them think they are above the rules or just that they won't get caught, but having been at a gym that subscribed to an illegal athlete mantra for years and continues to do so, I would never do so again and if my cp's current gym did this we would be out the door in a heartbeat. And my cp knows this. It also seems that when these gyms get caught they are mad at the people who turned them in, instead of being mad at themselves for breaking the rules in the first place.

exactly!!

 

[Emily]

Then we agree to disagree. In speaking with the German coach (I am one of the Canadian Coaches) I was told that in 2011 the FTC Bullets were the reps for Germany for the ICU and then at the USASF competition.

The underlying issues remain. Different rules/ages/team makeups create confusion and difficulties (see Thailand), add language barriers and you've got yourself a mess.

In 2011 and 2012 the Bullets did get a bid by an EP for the USASF worlds - hence competing there.
Both years team members were on the national team competing at ICU, but it was not the same team (because ICU was a national team, USASF was a club team - different people, different routines)

 

[Kelli Nicole]

Then we agree to disagree. In speaking with the German coach (I am one of the Canadian Coaches) I was told that in 2011 the FTC Bullets were the reps for Germany for the ICU and then at the USASF competition.

The underlying issues remain. Different rules/ages/team makeups create confusion and difficulties (see Thailand), add language barriers and you've got yourself a mess.

Only partially correct.

Team Germany ICU 2011:
FTG Bullets IASF 2011:

The same situation for 2012.
As far as I know, there are people from the Bullets team that also tryout for the ICU national team. Hence, similar people on the team, but definitely two separate and different teams.

And on the other hand - the athlete that was illegal 2011 is Canadian... and English is taught at a young age in Germany. So I don't think the Bullets have any language barriers.

 

[kristenthegreat]

ztaprincess - Keep it coming. Who wants to start a petition?

 

[ssccxnce]

Only partially correct.


FTG Bullets IASF 2011:

The same situation for 2012.
As far as I know, there are people from the Bullets team that also tryout for the ICU national team. Hence, similar people on the team, but definitely two separate and different teams.

And on the other hand - the athlete that was illegal 2011 is Canadian... and English is taught at a young age in Germany. So I don't think the Bullets have any language barriers.

this is the only thing i will chime into this discussion..
what exactly does the fact that she is canadian have to do with anything exactly..
i just dont understand the validity of all of this..

 

[SarahS]

this is the only thing i will chime into this discussion..
what exactly does the fact that she is canadian have to do with anything exactly..
i just dont understand the validity of all of this..

They were talking about language barriers and interpretation of rules. I'd guess that the majority of Canadians speak English.

 

[Kelli Nicole]

this is the only thing i will chime into this discussion..
what exactly does the fact that she is canadian have to do with anything exactly..
i just dont understand the validity of all of this..

It had to do with the fact that language barriers were mentioned, because they can lead to misinterpretations, problems, etc. But since the athlete in question is a native English speaker, I don't think she would have any.

 

[ssccxnce]

They were talking about language barriers and interpretation of rules. I'd guess that the majority of Canadians speak English.

It had to do with the fact that language barriers were mentioned, because they can lead to misinterpretations, problems, etc. But since the athlete in question is a native English speaker, I don't think she would have any.

understandable, but i know that a lot of the time people cannot understand age grids, rules especially if shes 16, i knew i sure as hell didn't i still don't even understand some of the way rules are written so for that language barrier yeah sure she speaks English but that doesn't mean it all makes sense.

i know that with the fierceboard and being able to ask all these questions about things all the time makes it easier for us but i know a lot of people that have no idea what is is and there is no real way for clarification.

just offering some insight you cant just assume everybody in cheer knows whats going on just saying

 

[Ashley]

understandable, but i know that a lot of the time people cannot understand age grids, rules especially if shes 16, i knew i sure as hell didn't i still don't even understand some of the way rules are written so for that language barrier yeah sure she speaks English but that doesn't mean it all makes sense.

i know that with the fierceboard and being able to ask all these questions about things all the time makes it easier for us but i know a lot of people that have no idea what is is and there is no real way for clarification.

just offering some insight you cant just assume everybody in cheer knows whats going on just saying

A lot of people on my level 6 team don't know the rules, they just expect the coach would know them and go with whatever he or she says. I make a point to know the rules since I've been burned by coaches missing a rule before, but not everyone does.

 

[ztaprincess]

understandable, but i know that a lot of the time people cannot understand age grids, rules especially if shes 16, i knew i sure as hell didn't i still don't even understand some of the way rules are written so for that language barrier yeah sure she speaks English but that doesn't mean it all makes sense.

i know that with the fierceboard and being able to ask all these questions about things all the time makes it easier for us but i know a lot of people that have no idea what is is and there is no real way for clarification.

just offering some insight you cant just assume everybody in cheer knows whats going on just saying

She understands the age grid because I asked her on her youtube channel how she competed this year at worlds when she is only 16, before I realized the rule change, and she knew the exact age grid rule and that it was possibly changing for next season. It wasn't until after that comment was made that I realized she competed the previous year also in the same division and would have been 15. Trust me the girl knows the rules and age grid, I mean from what I understand she lives and breaths cheerleading to the point of coming to the US to cheer in college.

From what I understand she was not on the ICU team in 2011 therefore the argument of competing at both wouldn't work since she was put on the team for Worlds.

I also want to say that if any coach, athlete, or parent from FTG wants to PM me and discuss this (to the best of their ability if they know and understand english) then be my guest, but do not contact and question why other people are looking into this. If you have issues with it and want to clear it up come to me. I am in no way doing this because I have something against this gym, I am doing this because every team whether it be that big gym in Freehold, NJ, the mega one in TX, or a gym accross the ocean needs to follow the rules. This is more towards the USASF then anything because they are the ones that put out a rule and then say that they are only going to enforce it when they would like to.

 

[pctmom]

I agree with you wholeheartedly that everybody needs to follow the rules. And I am begging for one set of clear, concise rules that is enforceable and given to us in a timely manner please. This is not the case with the IASF, USASF and ICU and has not been since the start.

Regarding the Bullet team, this is not what the coach and I discussed. Not even close. The girl was indeed Canadian and she was actually reported as underage by her former team (not me). But she was on the ICU floor and therefore, I assume believed she was able to be on the floor on the USASF. Us international teams "hear" a lot of: "that rule is only for the US", and many coaches take that statement at face value only to be chastised later.

The issue is with the organizing body not being clear for all involved. Issues like this will continue to arise unless there is alignment within these three groups.

 

[CheerBank]

A lot of people on my level 6 team don't know the rules, they just expect the coach would know them and go with whatever he or she says. I make a point to know the rules since I've been burned by coaches missing a rule before, but not everyone does.

A lot of parents expect the coaches to know the rules - and follow the rules - as well. I think though the more the athletes and their parents know the rules, and the more willing they are to report violation of them, the less likely teams are able to get away with using illegal athletes.

 

[ztaprincess]

The issue is that they were disqualified and still allowed to attend worlds the following year because the USASF is more "forgiving" to International teams. It states in the Worlds Packet on page 16 that they would not be able to attend worlds the following year or obtain a bid due to an ineligible athlete. In the same Worlds Packet it goes on to use the term "MAY" forefit their right to go to worlds. The USASF chose to ignore this and allow a team to compete the following year. There is an issue with that. I don't care if they were at the ICU and competed and then thought they could compete at worlds, if you are disqualified the rules should be enforced just like they would any other time.
I do not think this is an ICU issue really, they disqualified this team even though they did what was allowed at the ICU, but they awarded Bangkok a first place trophy after they had too many boys on the floor and not even spotters. Their excuse for allowing Bangkok to get their first place finish was because the team was going by the ICU rules and no one caught it. This issue is that the USASF is picking which teams they want to enforce the rules on. If they disqualfied this team but allowed them to attend worlds the following year then that makes 2 times that the USASF has let things like this slide for International teams. I would feel the same way if this was happening with US teams.

I am also not going to believe much of what the FTG coach says without proof seeing as how they are an employee of the EP they received their bid from and have been contacting posters on this forum/in this thread about why this issue is being looked into.

 

[pctmom]

I understand what you are saying, and I am empathetic to the situation. However, the root cause of this issue is the lack of clear and concise rules. While you in the US see these competitions as two distinct events (ICU and USASF/IASF) the rest of the world does not. And it is not "sold" to us as two separate events. There is overlap between the two, and its been designed that way (or they wouldn't hold them on the same weekend). Understand that the issue here is with a lack of clarity. This is why the USASF is "easier" on International teams...because the lack of clarity is ultimately the cause of these issues (certainly in Thailand's case).

I am not defending cheaters, if you knowingly break the rules you should be held accountable. But I will tell you from the perspective of an International team and an ICU team that there is an issue with understanding (and I speak the language). And there is no real distinction between these two events that has caused chaos in the past, it will continue to do so until everybody's rules are aligned.

 

[mollymags]

the inconsistencies need to be fixed. this is just stupid. there is no other way to put it. the people putting these events together, sending out info, and allowing these teams to register need to fix their system because it sure seems to be a disorganized mess. there has to be a way to fully and accurately relay the guidelines to international teams. the olympics has age guidelines for their competitors and that info somehow manages to get conveyed thoroughly, right?

why have rules if so many people are going to slip through the cracks and break them? there seems to be no real penalty at all, so why not? if these international teams are not being disqualified or penalized, i have a feeling its because someone running these events know that they are partially responsible for allowing this to happen by not providing translated copies of rules and age grids and also by not bothering to check the rosters to verify ages.