All-Star More World Divisions

Feb 4, 2010
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The extra small division with some extra rules, didnt bother anyone or how any other mega gym placed in other divisions. What it did bother is the mega gym who see an easy opportunity to put another trophy on the wall in what they consider an easy division.....

I recall the XS divisions (with Restrictions) bothering a lot of people who believed the "World Champion" label should be for the best-of-the-best, and not for divisions that bar the majority of gyms from even participating. If, say, gymnastics created a new division for Simone Biles because they expected her to win all the gold medals, and then let all the other gymnasts compete for a separate "World Champion" title, it would feel ridiculous wouldn't it?

Also, team sizes have been trending in the smaller direction for years, so the XS divisions filled a need for gyms of any size--- even Mega gyms who may have "leftovers" who don't fit on their Medium Level 6 teams. So the restrictions were lifted, and the XS divisions at Worlds became much more competitive and better quality (the first year was rough-- some of the teams making Finals wouldn't have come close without Restrictions). And no, Mega gyms aren't dominating XS. No mega gym's main team is XS. Pacific Coast Magic won XS last season and they're certainly not a mega gym. They're just a medium-sized regular gym, as are most of the gyms who do well in the XS divisions.

i also saw the extra small division good for those small gyms business, it would have drawn more kids to possibly try out for the smaller gym, knowing they can compete at the bigger competitions and have the possibility of placing. Not only growing the sport, but also helping grow a small business.

Fair enough. So why aren't the new divisions for Small Gyms only (aka D2)? Instead, a large gym can enter provided they only have 1 Worlds team and sandbag the rest of their athletes into Level 5 and below. So are we helping small struggling gyms, or are we helping bigger gyms hide from their actual divisions?

There are so many divisions now that kids who used to go to Worlds and felt accomplished when they placed 20th out of 70 teams now feel defeated unless they win a globe because there are only 10 teams in their division. So now everyone feels like the deserve to win a globe... So we create bogus divisions that a lot of gyms aren't even allowed to enter in order to create bogus champions. Having 2 Worlds teams means you're splitting the talent between 2 teams which is arguably more difficult than if you only had 1 Worlds team. So that's why these new divisions feel bogus to me.

the problem small gyms have that most big/mega gyms dont, is money... More money to hire the best choreographer, more money to have the best music, etc.

Most cheer music these days sounds similar, practically like video game noises, and there's hardly any time in a packed routine for choreography. Most cheerleading dances look similar regardless of who the choreographer is. The amount of money spent on music/choreo isn't having a drastic impact of competitive results. It's inevitable that some gyms will have more money than others; creating more divisions will never change that. Inner city teams have done just as well at times as teams from wealthy areas. I get that small gyms sometimes feel disadvantaged, but these aren't even Small Gym divisions. It feels like they're breaking down divisions in a more random way.
 
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catlady

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If, say, gymnastics created a new division for Simone Biles because they expected her to win all the gold medals, and then let all the other gymnasts compete for a separate "World Champion" title, it would feel ridiculous wouldn't it?

I understand why you're trying to compare World's to the Olympics, but that's actually the issue. The Olympics and other professional sports have sponsors that are helping offset huge expenses. Cheer has parents, and financials always come first, it's just reality in everything. I once did some extremely rough math based on how many teams were at World's multiplied by the avg number of athletes on a team multiplied by the price of a park hopper to get a rough idea of how much Disney was wanting for ESPN WWOS. I did the same for Summit and D2, it equated close to an avg of $2.5M for each event.

You can absolutely have a World's event that is for the most elite teams, but parents have to foot the bill. Parents already complain about having to pay for a park hopper they don't use or having to stay at hotels they don't want. I get it, I was one of those parents, but this is what Disney and City government want in return for these multi-million and billion dollar venues.

The real question: How much are you willing to pay to have an extremely elite event?
 
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cheermomforever

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I understand why you're trying to compare World's to the Olympics, but that's actually the issue. The Olympics and other professional sports have sponsors that are helping offset huge expenses. Cheer has parents, and financials always come first, it's just reality in everything. I once did some extremely rough math based on how many teams were at World's multiplied by the avg number of athletes on a team multiplied by the price of a park hopper to get a rough idea of how much Disney was wanting for ESPN WWOS. I did the same for Summit and D2, it equated close to an avg of $2.5M for each event.

You can absolutely have a World's event that is for the most elite teams, but parents have to foot the bill. Parents already complain about having to pay for a park hopper they don't use or having to stay at hotels they don't want. I get it, I was one of those parents, but this is what Disney and City government want in return for these multi-million and billion dollar venues.

The real question: How much are you willing to pay to have an extremely elite event?
So glad we r not part of a gym that tells parents the kids have to pay a ridiculous amount for their child to be in a tiny room at a certain hotel for Worlds! I live being in a large house for les!
 
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There are so many divisions now that kids who used to go to Worlds and felt accomplished when they placed 20th out of 70 teams now feel defeated unless they win a globe because there are only 10 teams in their division. So now everyone feels like the deserve to win a globe... So we create bogus divisions that a lot of gyms aren't even allowed to enter in order to create bogus champions. Having 2 Worlds teams means you're splitting the talent between 2 teams which is arguably more difficult than if you only had 1 Worlds team. So that's why these new divisions feel bogus to me.

I dont feel smaller gyms being given a division with a few restrictions is a bogus division with bogus world champions. Those kids probably put in just as much time in the gym as the mega gyms did, coaches and staff put just as many hours into their teams as mega gyms did, etc... I just did not see the xs division that way, it helped in probably a lot of ways, with the way it was set up. A) More money for usasf/varsity. B) giving smaller gyms more incentive to come to worlds and spend money if they have a bigger chance making it past day 1. C) exposure for said smaller gyms, probably compelling more athletes from the areas to cheer, business is business, the exposure they got probably helped for future seasons getting more kids to try out, and bringing in more money for that small gym.
i mean yeah a lot of above centers around money, but thats what the cheer world has come to now, so....

so while i get it may help those bigger gyms place more athletes onto teams that they would have turned away. But i also guarantee after a few seasons, itll be an easier team to stack with strong level 5 skilled athletes for an easier top 3 finish. And while people might not admit to doing that, you know there will be gyms who intentionally do it in the long run.
 
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Feb 4, 2010
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I understand why you're trying to compare World's to the Olympics, but that's actually the issue. The Olympics and other professional sports have sponsors that are helping offset huge expenses. Cheer has parents, and financials always come first, it's just reality in everything.

I didn't compare Cheer Worlds to the Olympics-- I compared Cheer Worlds to Gymnastics Worlds. I fully agree with you that the Olympics and professional sports are a different beast, but I wasn't speaking about those. My point was that gymnastics (or any amateur sport I can think of), doesn't make a lesser "B version" of an already existing division for the gymnasts who don't want to compete against Simone Biles. That would sacrifice the integrity of the World Championships by creating "false World champions".

I maintain that creating these new "B version" Limited divisions isn't going to add many more teams (and $$) to Cheer Worlds. Instead, it will just dilute whatever teams are already at Worlds. I can't see Level 6 growing much unless maybe they eliminate Summit, or at least put much less focus on it. But that's not going to happen (because $$). So instead of pushing kids through the levels faster so they can get to Level 6 before they graduate, gyms will continue to max out in Level 3.

If you look at Level 5, there are hardly any teams in some of those divisions-- so the number of Level 6 teams isn't going to magically grow in any big way just because they added "Limited" divisions. Worlds isn't going to grow larger, instead they just made it drastically easier to win Worlds in those Limited divisions where many gyms cannot even enter. And that bothers me because I care about the integrity of a World Championships in a sport. But maybe we're not supposed to care about anything because it's all about $$.

I dont feel smaller gyms being given a division with a few restrictions is a bogus division with bogus world champions. Those kids probably put in just as much time in the gym as the mega gyms did, coaches and staff put just as many hours into their teams as mega gyms did, etc... I just did not see the xs division that way, it helped in probably a lot of ways, with the way it was set up. A) More money for usasf/varsity. B) giving smaller gyms more incentive to come to worlds and spend money if they have a bigger chance making it past day 1. C) exposure for said smaller gyms, probably compelling more athletes from the areas to cheer, business is business, the exposure they got probably helped for future seasons getting more kids to try out, and bringing in more money for that small gym.
i mean yeah a lot of above centers around money, but thats what the cheer world has come to now, so....

All kids in cheerleading work hard even in Level 1. You don't get to be a World Champion just for working hard.

I understand your vantage point, but adding "Limited" divisions isn't going to add many more teams to Worlds--- these teams were already at Worlds. Yes, some less talented teams will go home from Worlds happier with a better placement. But we're hurting the integrity of Worlds by crowning 2 World Champions in the same exact division. And it's not as if the 2 World Champions are "Small Gym" and "Large Gym". Instead, we assume that having more than 1 Worlds team in your gym always gives you an advantage, which it absolutely doesn't. That's why I called these new Limited divisions bogus. It has nothing to do with how hard the kids work, because everyone works hard.
 
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catlady

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I maintain that creating these new "B version" Limited divisions isn't going to add many more teams (and $$) to Cheer Worlds. Instead, it will just dilute whatever teams are already at Worlds. I can't see Level 6 growing much unless maybe they eliminate Summit, or at least put much less focus on it. But that's not going to happen (because $$). So instead of pushing kids through the levels faster so they can get to Level 6 before they graduate, gyms will continue to max out in Level 3.
It was your reference to Simone Biles, an Olympian, that I was referring to. Again, you are looking at the sport without taking into consideration cost at all. As far as other amateur sports, I don't know of any other amateur sports that requires an entire top ten sq footage convention center for a weekend, plus set up time. In comparison, this year the USG championship occupied Dickies arena, which seats 14,000 people, is televised, and has sponsors off-setting a lot of the expense. Pre-COVID at TD Gardens in Boston, 17,565 seats. No comparison.

As far as, in your words, "B" version: They're growing AS Internationally, as well as, it's still growing in the US. Allstar is only 30-35 years old and can't be compared to the majority of established sports that began in the 1800's. Skilled tumble and stunt coaches, gyms, choreographers, etc are going to take time to develop in the US and globally. All other sports took time to develop and come together under a global set of rules/divisions and I can't think of any sport that accomplished that in 30-35 years.
 

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