All-Star National Championships Are Won At Tryouts

[King]

This season the small program I coach at took the "what do you have" instead of "what will you get" approach with building our teams. We expected it to ruffle a lot of feathers, which can be scary for a program with 75 kids. A lot of kids and parents were upset after tryouts. No one was placed on a team below their skill level at all, but many kids thought that working skills or barely scraping by without a spot would get them moved up, and it didn't. Many families threatened to leave right after results were sent out. It was nerve racking but our director stuck to her guns about placements and in the end only 2 kids left because of it. I hear so many small programs say that they are not able to build teams like this because they can't afford to have people walk out- we felt that way but bit the bullet and went for it and we are thrilled with the result. We have set our teams up for success, and have set a precedent for how teams are put together in the future. I think that the chance that a greatly successful season will draw more customers to us in the future was worth the 2 we lost.

It's a very different mindset from what existed when I aged out 6 years ago. Everyone in the top of every division is in the high range for difficulty now. Execution, creativity, and performance skills are what set teams apart. It used to be, "cheerleading values progression over perfection, gymnastics does the opposite." We as an industry are getting into the perfection before progression mindset and I absolutely love it. When you have a team that has the skills they need, you are able to focus on all the other pieces you need to have a winning team. Lower levels are more impressive to watch than ever, AND it's significantly safer for all of the kiddos.


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android

I heart you.

 

[cupieqt]

Off topic--Do you know why? I would love to read more about the reasons that they are choosing to do this? Some rec teams (especially ones that continue to compete after an AYC or Pop Warner season) are very different creatures than what Prep is. And I am not sure how they will fit in now. Does NCA want to loose that market completely?

Because there is no unified governing body for rec. There's no way to enforce rules for it. The usasf only covers all star so it's in their best interest to promote the prep division as an alternative to rec. Too many all star gyms are taking advantage and abusing the rec division.


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Androidas

 

[mommadonna]

HEY! I have had that exact same thought! Well, let me clarify that. Why would you start with a team who is barely level 4 with the hopes that athletes progress from mostly level 3 skills. Why not just be a solid kick booty level 3 team? 4 Athletes with standing tucks does not make a level 4 team. Then the entire year the team struggles to compete at that level and all those potential tucks only pan out to be 4 more. The athletes are frustrated with losing all season. The parents are upset with paying all this money to lose all over the place and at the end of your season you have parents and athletes looking for a new gym with winning teams.

I think large and mega gyms have the advantage of fielding "true" level teams but also have the ability to dangle the carrot of being on the next level of a good true level team in the near future.

At small gyms it is a crap shoot every year. Trying to keep parents and athletes satisfied with placement and field true level teams is a monumental task. I feel for the coaches and owners. They want to be successful....they want to hold on to their level 5 athletes but what if fielding a level 5 team is not in the cards this year with only a handful of true level 5 athletes left. If they do not squeak some kind of level 5 team out those athletes are going to look else where. What owners don't think about is that when they squeak together a level 5 team with just a handful of true lv5 kids...they water down every level that falls below it because level 5 will pull from level 4 and level 4 will pull from 3 and three from 2.....so what you end up with is a bunch of watered down teams with none of them being a solid level. All of them struggle....and the entire gym finishes the year looking ummm....not good.

This. Thisthisthisthis.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

What owners don't think about is that when they squeak together a level 5 team with just a handful of true lv5 kids...they water down every level that falls below it because level 5 will pull from level 4 and level 4 will pull from 3 and three from 2.....so what you end up with is a bunch of watered down teams with none of them being a solid level. All of them struggle....and the entire gym finishes the year looking ummm....not good.

This.

If I could tell gym owners/other coaches one thing, it's that TWO doubles do not a Level 5 team make!

 

[mommadonna]

This season the small program I coach at took the "what do you have" instead of "what will you get" approach with building our teams. We expected it to ruffle a lot of feathers, which can be scary for a program with 75 kids. A lot of kids and parents were upset after tryouts. No one was placed on a team below their skill level at all, but many kids thought that working skills or barely scraping by without a spot would get them moved up, and it didn't. Many families threatened to leave right after results were sent out. It was nerve racking but our director stuck to her guns about placements and in the end only 2 kids left because of it. I hear so many small programs say that they are not able to build teams like this because they can't afford to have people walk out- we felt that way but bit the bullet and went for it and we are thrilled with the result. We have set our teams up for success, and have set a precedent for how teams are put together in the future. I think that the chance that a greatly successful season will draw more customers to us in the future was worth the 2 we lost.

It's a very different mindset from what existed when I aged out 6 years ago. Everyone in the top of every division is in the high range for difficulty now. Execution, creativity, and performance skills are what set teams apart. It used to be, "cheerleading values progression over perfection, gymnastics does the opposite." We as an industry are getting into the perfection before progression mindset and I absolutely love it. When you have a team that has the skills they need, you are able to focus on all the other pieces you need to have a winning team. Lower levels are more impressive to watch than ever, AND it's significantly safer for all of the kiddos.


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android

Yes. Yesyesyes.

 

[cheermomforever]

Stacked: More than 75% of the kids on your level 2 team have solid level 3 skills and threw them at tryouts.
Sandbag: Your senior level 4 has competed all season (and done well) in their division and drops to level 2 at NCA.
Trainwreck: Your level 3 team has 4 kids out of 20 throwing a running tuck at tryouts, no specialty passes and everyone else is level 2
There is a happy medium in there somewhere. The trainwreck team equals injuries but I don't agree that just because a team isn't' stacked automatically means they are more prone to injury. If you have an effective coaching staff that knows their athletes limits you can push your team to accomplish great things and save their knees.
I think part of this is our society's trend toward "the win is everything". Its okay to come in 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) a few times in your sports career. Like I said before and Mama said sometimes it's those teams that lose (and win) together that result in the best memories for your child.

I have seen a lot of posts this year about Nca. Your post said a level 4 team dropping to 2. Quite a few posts said a level 5 worlds team competed R5. Was it really that bad this year as much as it seems from all the posts? Just wondering, as we have not been to this comp.


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android

 

[mamabear]

Because there is no unified governing body for rec. There's no way to enforce rules for it. The usasf only covers all star so it's in their best interest to promote the prep division as an alternative to rec. Too many all star gyms are taking advantage and abusing the rec division.

Thank you. I wasn't looking at it from that point (but from more from a comparison of the two). The decision makes sense, I guess; but, it is a shame that true rec teams will be missing out on the bigger/more intense comps that all stars offer.

 

[dawgshow]

Having a good environment and team atmosphere is great and honestly worth more than a win (can speak from having won and lost multiple times). But when all athletes are not at a minimum level needed to compete kids can be AWFUL to each other. You can never police what kids say to one another (can't stop whispers) so your goal as a coach is to make sure you never create a situation that would put a kid on a team where they would struggle. If you have a full small team of 20 and 1 kid doesnt have the skill yet even if that kid is possibly the greatest human being alive the other 19 females will socially abuse that girl. I have seen it MANY times.

Which also goes into coaching females in general. Boys can hate each other and still bust their butts to win. Females have to like each other to win. They'd rather drop that B they don't like than win. So anytime you create disparity on a team where someone (or half of them) don't have the skills the other half will not like them because they are holding the team back.

Really? I don't know that I've EVER seen this. Sure, I've seen bases drop flyers because they think they should be in the air, but not because Susie doesn't have her tumbling. My CP has been the low man on the tumbling totem pole for a couple of years and no one has said boo to her. Ever. Probably because she has other level appropriate skills.


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android

 

[Klynn641]

From a parents perspective, my issue is that progression for the athlete goes out the window. Winning is great, but it isn't ALL about banners and jackets. I could accept the process stated above if the gym also included opportunities for my CP to progress during the season within their fees (i.e. tumble and stunt classes at a higher level included in tuition), but I don't want to pay thousands of dollars per year for my child to not learn anything all season, or have to pay hundreds more for separate instruction in order to progress.

I do feel that gyms are being forced to go the route you are suggesting, all due to the gyms that are "sandbagging". It seems to become more common each season. Not sure where the middle ground is where the athlete can benefit and progress while the gym remains competitive.

Our gym allows an athlete to continue to work on and develop their skills beyond the level of the team in which they were placed. Actually, they strongly encourage it. Your level of tumbling class is not tied to the level of an athletes team but rather it is based on the skill level of the individual athlete. And as an athlete progresses, they switch which tumbling class they attend.

 

[cupieqt]

Our gym allows an athlete to continue to work on and develop their skills beyond the level of the team in which they were placed. Actually, they strongly encourage it. Your level of tumbling class is not tied to the level of an athletes team but rather it is based on the skill level of the individual athlete. And as an athlete progresses, they switch which tumbling class they attend.


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Androidñbkknmnn
Ngnnbfbnb
Nfbmf

Vvn
Ff
Fhnnv
G
Nfnvm
Gmfffnvvnvvvvvnvvnvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvbnnvb
Nob
Gnnnnnnfnffffffvvvv
Nvbbbb bbbb bbbb bbbb bbbb bbbb bbbbvvb bbbbvvbnbbbbnvbv nvvbnbvvbvbnbbbbbnbbbb nvvbnbvnbnvnvbbnvvnvbbbbbnvbbbbnvbbbbnvv
NBC .

Right back atcha


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Androidas

 

[Klynn641]

I think I'm fixed now...geez! After all I'm only a Software Engineer, how was I to know ?


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Androidñbkknmnn
Ngnnbfbnb
Nfbmf

Vvn
Ff
Fhnnv
G
Nfnvm
Gmfffnvvnvvvvvnvvnvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvbnnvb
Nob
Gnnnnnnfnffffffvvvv
Nvbbbb bbbb bbbb bbbb bbbb bbbb bbbbvvb bbbbvvbnbbbbnvbv nvvbnbvvbvbnbbbbbnbbbb nvvbnbvnbnvnvbbnvvnvbbbbbnvbbbbnvbbbbnvv
NBC .

 

[King]

Really? I don't know that I've EVER seen this. Sure, I've seen bases drop flyers because they think they should be in the air, but not because Susie doesn't have her tumbling. My CP has been the low man on the tumbling totem pole for a couple of years and no one has said boo to her. Ever. Probably because she has other level appropriate skills.


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android

Girls will drop Susie if they don't like Susie. Why they don't like Susie can be a multitude of things. Not having level appropriate skills doesn't help the girls like Susie.

 

[King]

From a business perspective:

Gym owners or coaches have you ever had an exodus of people because last years team was too stacked and you won too easily?

OR

Have you ever had people leave because the team just wasn't competitive enough?

I would be willing to bet the first one is highly unlikely and the second one very common. Choose stronger teams and if the athletes make it past the first week where they grumble because they aren't on the level they individual desired they stay the whole year, their satisfaction is higher, and they have a higher occurrence of coming back again.

 

[KDCheerMom]

I have seen a lot of posts this year about Nca. Your post said a level 4 team dropping to 2. Quite a few posts said a level 5 worlds team competed R5. Was it really that bad this year as much as it seems from all the posts? Just wondering, as we have not been to this comp.


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android

Thanks for posing this question. I too have wondered the same thing when sandbagging is discussed. BTW - I go with @cheermomma definition. Are there just a few examples that keep getting referenced over and over again making it seem like it is a bigger problem? I posed the same question on the summit thread - are really all of these worlds level athletes coming in and competing level 2?

Stacked: More than 75% of the kids on your level 2 team have solid level 3 skills and threw them at tryouts.
Sandbag: Your senior level 4 has competed all season (and done well) in their division and drops to level 2 at NCA.

I do think the industry/scoresheets are pushing to mastery at a level to be competitive. I think @mollymags put it very well and the question is are more gyms shifting their business model in order to put competitive teams on the floor. From all of the comments here - it seems most parents are comfortable with most, if not all, athletes having solid competency at a level from the beginning at tryouts. At the end of the day - if all gyms move to this model - wins are no longer guaranteed as the competition will ratchet up as well and the teams/routines will be better. I have only been around two seasons - but in our area - I think the difficulty has gone way higher this season than what I saw even the previous year. JMO

 

[angelndscz]

Isn't a competitive, level appropriate team a stacked team?[/QUOT

Which also goes into coaching females in general. Boys can hate each other and still bust their butts to win. Females have to like each other to win. They'd rather drop that B they don't like than win. So anytime you create disparity on a team where someone (or half of them) don't have the skills the other half will not like them because they are holding the team back.

Sad that girls are like this, but "in general" is a true statement.