All-Star New Age Grid Suggestions

[BlueCat]

It took us 30+ hours and 20 people to make our teams. Believe me I know.

That is sounds very much like our roster placement process.

 

[SheCheers]

I have a feeling that this question is going to go unanswered. People always complain about younger kids on Sr and Jr teams, but I'm not really sure what the actual problem it causes is. I know people say that there is a big difference in maturity or that it might offend some older kids to be on a team of younger ones, or whatever, but I'm not sure what the *real* problem that could be CAUSED by the current age grid. So, I'm honestly asking and it's not that i agree or disagree with the current system, i don't really have an opinion, but could someone actually give me a fact that answers the question:

What is the actual across the board cheer-related problem that is caused by the current age grid?

are there more injuries occurring with the current age grid that is actually caused by their being no floor? something else?

 

[all4cheer]

Because all cheerleaders birthdays do not fall before the cutoff of Aug, i personally believe we should go back to using GRADE level instead of age.....this way we won't have some children (such as my own) waiting until they are sophomores in HS before getting to cheer on a senior team where the cutoff is 14
you can overlap one grade for each division
Seniors: 8th grade to 12th
Juniors: 4th grade to 8th?
and so on.........

 

[King]

Because all cheerleaders birthdays do not fall before the cutoff of Aug, i personally believe we should go back to using GRADE level instead of age.....this way we won't have some children (such as my own) waiting until they are sophomores in HS before getting to cheer on a senior team where the cutoff is 14
you can overlap one grade for each division
Seniors: 8th grade to 12th
Juniors: 4th grade to 8th?
and so on.........

You have to be 16 to drive in GA... whether you are a Senior, Junior, Sophomore, or Freshmen when you turn 16. And what happens when you fail the 12 grade repeatedly... or enroll in a local high school to keep cheering? Age is a number no one can change so it keeps things eve and everyone on the same developmental playing field.

 

[King]

That is sounds very much like our roster placement process.

thoughts on the age division idea?

 

[thebowqueen]

What is the actual across the board cheer-related problem that is caused by the current age grid?

The problem is that a lot of people dislike the very tiny, very flexible, and very talented 12 year olds flying on a senior team.

However, the same people seem to not have a problem with the same talented 12 year old who is 5'4, 120 lbs. and a beast base.

And, 'they' seem to assume that every teeny tiny flyer must be 12. When in reality teeny tiny girls can stay teeny tiny until after they hit puberty which for some can be very late - 15, 16 years old.

The outcry of "oh poor susie is not ready to be on a team with those 18 year olds' is crap. Because if you didn't want YOUR child to be on a senior team - don't let them! Insist they are placed on a junior team. And - have you BEEN to a jr team practice? Those hormone raging 12 and 13 year olds are just as bad - if not WORSE than high school kids! Lastly, 18 year olds that 'don't want to be on a team with 12 year old babies' - quit! Tell your gym owner you are unhappy - and most 18 year olds are mature enough to realize the benefits of having the younger girls and will accept them with open arms.

And most gym owners KNOW which kids can handle moving up and which ones can't. Across the board. A talented 5 year old who can backwalkover frontwalkover cartwheel and roundoff will stay on tinies for 1 more year if she can't stand still in her spot and remember the counts. And the 10 year old with all the skills for jr 3 will stay on youth 2 if she cries at practice and crumbles at competition. JMHO

 

[socratesofcheer]

The problem is that a lot of people dislike the very tiny, very flexible, and very talented 12 year olds flying on a senior team.

actually, I dislike the very tiny 8 year old on the senior team. Sometimes you have to think outside the level 5 box.

 

[kristenthegreat]

What is the actual across the board cheer-related problem that is caused by the current age grid?

Actually, although the whole issue of ages and maturity and handling of such is a side-effect of the issue (and I do consider it an issue-yes. From PERSONAL experience)- from what I've gathered from the posters above (many of whom are older, wiser, and much more cheer industry-knowledgeable) is that it's also a matter of division depth/competition. Many seem to feel that Tiny is an unnecessary division (competitive-wise, I agree. Most young ones under 5 haven't a clue about placements or anything besides 'dressing up for competition' and 'fun' lol)..and that by perhaps making it exhibition-only it can be more cost-effective for younger participants as well as cut down on competition running time. Also, a long-standing concern is the depth of divisions. By cutting divisions down to 4 instead of 5, hypothetically you're putting more participants into other teams, making them bigger and divisions deeper.

Although some people insist 'Why should we keep comparing ourselves to other sports, we're not like other sports!', actually, until we're even CONSIDERED a sport by other people [a complete subset is whether or not we should even strive to be considered a sport because it will negatively affect our industry, but I'm not able to speak on that], we kinda have to gauge the criteria by which other sports are considered sports. And for many people, the fact that you can 'play' in 2 different age levels doesn't really sit well with the whole 'sports' criteria. People of similar, smaller age sets play against each other. In what other rec/allstar/travel sport are you routinely competing against people of a 6-year+ age span? When I did YMCA comp gymnastics, they broke down the levels by age. I wasn't 12 competing against a 6-8 year old.. When I did AAU volleyball, I was U18, with people ages 18-16. People do play up (like I did), but most times it's a year or two. Not a 12 year old playing U18. Unless they're that little Argentinian or Peruvian boy who's set to play pro soccer the moment he's age-eligible.

 

[SheCheers]

Actually, although the whole issue of ages and maturity and handling of such is a side-effect of the issue (and I do consider it an issue-yes. From PERSONAL experience)- from what I've gathered from the posters above (many of whom are older, wiser, and much more cheer industry-knowledgeable) is that it's also a matter of division depth/competition. Many seem to feel that Tiny is an unnecessary division (competitive-wise, I agree. Most young ones under 5 haven't a clue about placements or anything besides 'dressing up for competition' and 'fun' lol)..and that by perhaps making it exhibition-only it can be more cost-effective for younger participants as well as cut down on competition running time. Also, a long-standing concern is the depth of divisions. By cutting divisions down to 4 instead of 5, hypothetically you're putting more participants into other teams, making them bigger and divisions deeper.

But in turn it would be making it more difficult on less-than-mega-gyms. You'd end up with too many small teams, or too many athletes unhappy with their level placements, maybe they suck it up for one year, maybe even 2, but the next year they're going to be out looking for a bigger gym that can meet their needs or they'll quit altogether. unhappy cheerleaders leave... if they gym tries to make a ton of small teams to accommodate, they need more staff, more practice areas, etc, but probably can't afford that being a less-than-mega gym. to me, it seems that would hurt cheer as a whole.

Although some people insist 'Why should we keep comparing ourselves to other sports, we're not like other sports!', actually, until we're even CONSIDERED a sport by other people [a complete subset is whether or not we should even strive to be considered a sport because it will negatively affect our industry, but I'm not able to speak on that], we kinda have to gauge the criteria by which other sports are considered sports. And for many people, the fact that you can 'play' in 2 different age levels doesn't really sit well with the whole 'sports' criteria. People of similar, smaller age sets play against each other. In what other rec/allstar/travel sport are you routinely competing against people of a 6-year+ age span? When I did YMCA comp gymnastics, they broke down the levels by age. I wasn't 12 competing against a 6-8 year old.. When I did AAU volleyball, I was U18, with people ages 18-16. People do play up (like I did), but most times it's a year or two. Not a 12 year old playing U18. Unless they're that little Argentinian or Peruvian boy who's set to play pro soccer the moment he's age-eligible.

i personally think we should stop using sport analogies to begin with. 1) cheerleading isn't a sport and may never be considered one. 2) cheerleading competitions are not head to head on a field where an 18 year old could tackle, kick, hit a ball at, etc. an 8 year old. I would guess the aggressive nature of head to head sports is where the age thing is used. it's a safety issue. There are a ton more skill sets in cheer, than there are in soccer, even further widening the gap. other sports DO allow players to move up one age division (at least around here) when parents feel they're skills are compatible with older divisions. and i do think the choice being left up to the coaches who should know what they're doing ALONG with the parents, would be best.

more to say, but heading out...

 

[kristenthegreat]

more to say, but heading out...

I can't attest to MANY of the things you've posted. Why? I'm not a gym owner, nor do I have the depth of experience in the industry to claim I can make a judgment about why things should be one way or another. I can simply provide you with reasons as to why others are saying they want to alter the age ranges. You may disagree with the idea, and there are people, I'm sure, that agree with you. I'm not sure what I think either way, but in the meantime I can give you a for-the-good-of-the-sport reason for it, as opposed to a personal one (like the maturity issue). I'm sure one of the other posters: @kingston , @ACEDAD , @BlueCat , or others on here would give or have already given their reasons for or against a change, what the change should be etc.

As for the other one, there are plenty of non-contact sports that also use closer age ranges. Gymnastics, our closest sister sport, also has classifications for age. There is 'senior' age competitors and 'junior' age ones, as well as rec levels that are then divided into age divisions for placements. Volleyball, also a non-contact sport (hypothetically lol) uses a similar breakdown. For many of the same reasons they're listing: maturity of the competitor, for one, and that like age/skill should play like age/skill.

I will say again, for every person out there that can say 'Well, MY child can handle being 12 on a senior team etc etc', there are plenty of others on here who can speak from the other side of the coin. I can speak from BOTH sides (being older and being younger) and on either side I'll tell you it's not always the best experience. Remember what Tsunami had to deal with this year at worlds? Could all 12 year olds handle that type of stress/pressure? There are very few that fit the bill- do we still make rules to accommodate them?

ETA: I cut out most of your response because I'm once again writing a book explaining myself lol :D

 

[CGAcheer]

As for the other one, there are plenty of non-contact sports that also use closer age ranges. Gymnastics, our closest sister sport, also has classifications for age. There is 'senior' age competitors and 'junior' age ones, as well as rec levels that are then divided into age divisions for placements. Volleyball, also a non-contact sport (hypothetically lol) uses a similar breakdown. For many of the same reasons they're listing: maturity of the competitor, for one, and that like age/skill should play like age/skill.

gymnastics doesn't need a whole team, so you can break it down into tons of ages and 10+ levels and be fine.

giant 17 year old volleyball players spiking the ball at 10 year olds is different than a 17 year old working with a 10 year old to indirectly compete against other similarly aged teams.

and people play up all the time in other sports, they are u18, u16, u14 etc. not specifically 17-18, 15-16 etc. Your teams are also playing the same sport regardless of age, with t ball and coach pitch being the exception. with cheer you have levels that either prevent or allow you to throw certain skills.

 

[kristenthegreat]

gymnastics doesn't need a whole team, so you can break it down into tons of ages and 10+ levels and be fine.

giant 17 year old volleyball players spiking the ball at 10 year olds is different than a 17 year old working with a 10 year old to indirectly compete against other similarly aged teams.

and people play up all the time in other sports, they are u18, u16, u14 etc. not specifically 17-18, 15-16 etc. Your teams are also playing the same sport regardless of age, with t ball and coach pitch being the exception. with cheer you have levels that either prevent or allow you to throw certain skills.

Don't these other sports also make certain classifications based on skill? I have recollections of my sister playing travel soccer and there being an A division and B division for each Uage..

 

[flcheermom]

Don't these other sports also make certain classifications based on skill? I have recollections of my sister playing travel soccer and there being an A division and B division for each Uage..

Soccer is divided by age yearly. u4-U19...and is divided by skill levels. There is strictly recreation teams, which usually only play other teams within their own club and age level - do not travel out of the club. Three travel team levels - teams from different clubs play each other based on like skill level and same age group. Competitive rec, region cup teams and then state cup teams. Used to be called A, B, and C. A is the highest level, B mid and C lowest.. The Birthday cut off for Soccer is Aug 1. My son has a July Birthday, he is 15 - so he plays U16. Had his birthday been Aug 2, he would play U15. So, he is usually one of the youngest on his team. Players can play "up" in age level but only up to 2 years. So a true U16 player could play up to U18 - but to play up requires the club and coach to allow it. Players can never play down below their age group. Sorry for the long, boring post, but just trying to shed light on how its done in soccer lol - I am as much a soccer mom as a cheer mom. :)

Edit - Divisions are declared at the beginning of the season - meaning if you are a state cup team (high level) you only play other state cup teams, and so forth -

 

[MomOf2ThatsMe]

Edit - Divisions are declared at the beginning of the season - meaning if you are a state cup team (high level) you only play other state cup teams, and so forth -

You mean they can't decide before a tournament that they don't want to compete as a state cup team for whatever reason and drop a division ;) I'm sure that if XYZ soccer club had two U14 teams of differing skill levels that it's probably frowned upon and discouraged to take players from their A team and put them on their B team as well...

When I played softball as a kid we had something similar. There were rec teams and travel fast-pitch teams. It was against the rules for a kid to come off of a fast-pitch team and join a rec team in the same season. The fast-pitch season ended before rec, so it was not uncommon for rec teams to try and pull pitchers and beast batters from those teams once their season ended.

 

[socratesofcheer]

But in turn it would be making it more difficult on less-than-mega-gyms. You'd end up with too many small teams, or too many athletes unhappy with their level placements, maybe they suck it up for one year, maybe even 2, but the next year they're going to be out looking for a bigger gym that can meet their needs or they'll quit altogether. unhappy cheerleaders leave... if they gym tries to make a ton of small teams to accommodate, they need more staff, more practice areas, etc, but probably can't afford that being a less-than-mega gym. to me, it seems that would hurt cheer as a whole.

The problem with these statements is that they are purely opinion. Stating opinions as fact is very misleading. This is very similar to when the age floor was put on level 5 teams for worlds. There was an uproar on how it was going to kill worlds and how horrible it would become. Now people are clamoring for LESS teams at worlds. Clearly the age floor did not hurt the sr level 5 teams.