All-Star Not All Star Related But I Need Thoughts

[allstarmama]

This is high school related but I just need to see what people think about this. I can't believe I am the only one that thinks it's absolutely ridiculous! (I did also post on the high school board but it's not very active over there). They are trying to implement this "new rule" for the current season...NOW at the end of September just a few weeks before the first competition.

So I've gotten wind that "The Powers That Be" in Massachusetts are trying to eliminate the best teams in the state from the state competition in order to give "other teams a chance". WAIT WHAT???? Yes, you heard me right. From what I have heard, the plan is to try and implement a new rule that would take the top 8 teams (regardless of division) from Regionals and put them in a separate category to compete at a separate event. Those 8 teams would NOT be eligible to compete for the state title in their division. I'm sorry but this is absolutely ludicrous. These coaches want to be able to compete for a "state" title AFTER removing the best teams in the state. It sounds like some sort of sick joke but it is really being discussed!!! Thoughts?? My thought is NOT EVERYONE NEEDS A TROPHY!!!! If you can't win a state title in your division because teams are better than you UP YOUR GAME!!! I am incensed over this...so tired of the mentality that everyone deserves to win.....they don't! The teams that are competitive year after year are competitive because their schools put a lot into the programs!

 

[quitthedrama]

I'm a bit removed from high school competition cheer this year :cheering: but I haven't heard anything like that. I know they are adding a Game Day division which will exhibition this Fall and compete this Winter but each school would have to either compete in the standard division or Game Day.
If you hear anything else, please update. I do have a CP who does high school cheer. They don't compete but I would still be interested in hearing about any changes.

 

[allstarmama]

@quitthedrama It's definitely being talked about and some board members are for it. I imagine there will be a lot of backlash if it does go through hence them trying to push it through quietly. What are your thoughts on it? Really curious to see how other people feel.

 

[quitthedrama]

I am all for the game day division. I am not a fan of the way the divisions are currently set up currently and I think the game day division will cut down on injuries and teams competing "out of their league". There are "haves" and "have nots" in Mass. high school cheer and they currently have to compete against each other and I think that is wrong. I also am not a fan of the way Nationals work. IMO if you go to Nationals it should only be NCA or UCA.
However, if what you say is happening is in fact true and is different from the addition of the game day division, then I would have a huge problem with it. The best teams should compete for the state titles in their respective divisions. We have some amazing teams (I'm looking at you Dracut!) and it would be ridiculous if they weren't eligible to compete for a state title.

 

[gofriars610]

So it's like how hockey does it in MA with the Super 8?

 

[allstarmama]

So it's like how hockey does it in MA with the Super 8?

Not sure, I don't have a high school hockey player yet.

 

[allstarmama]

I am all for the game day division. I am not a fan of the way the divisions are currently set up currently and I think the game day division will cut down on injuries and teams competing "out of their league". There are "haves" and "have nots" in Mass. high school cheer and they currently have to compete against each other and I think that is wrong. I also am not a fan of the way Nationals work. IMO if you go to Nationals it should only be NCA or UCA.
However, if what you say is happening is in fact true and is different from the addition of the game day division, then I would have a huge problem with it. The best teams should compete for the state titles in their respective divisions. We have some amazing teams (I'm looking at you Dracut!) and it would be ridiculous if they weren't eligible to compete for a state title.

I'm glad to hear that! There are some amazing teams here in MA! Some have been powerhouses for years and others are up and coming after putting in A LOT of time and effort! Disgusting to think these teams would not be allowed to compete for a state title so someone else can "have a chance".

 

[twincheermom]

Judge recertification is Saturday. If in fact this is being done, I am sure it will be discussed in depth. I'm sure the all music format will be discussed in depth as well.

I have always thought it would be neat to take all the winners and have them compete at the end of the day to see who is the grand state champion. It would make for a super long day, especially for teams that competed in the morning, but how cool would it be to see some of the top teams that never compete against one another actually compete. And use both lines of judges. I've brought this up, but it never really goes anywhere.

I'll let you know what I find out Saturday.

 

[allstarmama]

Judge recertification is Saturday. If in fact this is being done, I am sure it will be discussed in depth. I'm sure the all music format will be discussed in depth as well.

I have always thought it would be neat to take all the winners and have them compete at the end of the day to see who is the grand state champion. It would make for a super long day, especially for teams that competed in the morning, but how cool would it be to see some of the top teams that never compete against one another actually compete. And use both lines of judges. I've brought this up, but it never really goes anywhere.

I'll let you know what I find out Saturday.

I absolutely agree @twincheermom and would love to see the best of the best compete!!! Take all the States winners and put them head to head! Would be amazing!!! But to remove the best teams from the State competition "because the same teams always win" is RIDICULOUS not to mention unfair to every athlete!! You strip away the best teams and then give teams a "fake" State title. "Here's your title, no you're not really the best in your division or the state we just took away the competition so you could win. Now go ahead and hang this nice banner in your gym that says you are the state champion. Don't you feel good about yourself?"

 

[Official OWECheer]

I absolutely agree @twincheermom and would love to see the best of the best compete!!! Take all the States winners and put them head to head! Would be amazing!!! But to remove the best teams from the State competition "because the same teams always win" is RIDICULOUS not to mention unfair to every athlete!! You strip away the best teams and then give teams a "fake" State title. "Here's your title, no you're not really the best in the state we just took away the competition so you could win. Now go ahead and hang this nice banner in your gym that says you are the state champion. Don't you feel good about yourself?"

Totally agree with you. Unfortunately, some teams will never have the resources to become good. That's just life.

 

[quitthedrama]

I absolutely agree @twincheermom and would love to see the best of the best compete!!! Take all the States winners and put them head to head! Would be amazing!!! But to remove the best teams from the State competition "because the same teams always win" is RIDICULOUS not to mention unfair to every athlete!! You strip away the best teams and then give teams a "fake" State title. "Here's your title, no you're not really the best in your division or the state we just took away the competition so you could win. Now go ahead and hang this nice banner in your gym that says you are the state champion. Don't you feel good about yourself?"

This is where we may disagree. There is a complete disparity within divisions now which I think needs to change. Divisions should be Advanced, Intermediate and Beginner rather than based by population. That way the best can go against the best. It is humiliating for teams that have little skill and no professional choreography and can't even pay an athletic fee to go against teams who are coached by big name all star coaches and spent $1,000 or more per season on camps, all star gym coaching time, choreography etc. My kids are from the schools that have no budget for cheer and have no one or very few who have competed all star. They don't care about winning, but it is tough for those kids to take the floor and compete against a team with mostly level 4 and 5 athletes coached by a Worlds level coach. Solid healthy competition is great. Humiliation and having zero chance of placing isn't. However that doesn't mean this proposal, if true, is the right solution either.

"You are only responsible for being honest, not for someone else's reaction to your honesty."

 

[twincheermom]

This is where we may disagree. There is a complete disparity within divisions now which I think needs to change. Divisions should be Advanced, Intermediate and Beginner rather than based by population. That way the best can go against the best. It is humiliating for teams that have little skill and no professional choreography and can't even pay an athletic fee to go against teams who are coached by big name all star coaches and spent $1,000 or more per season on camps, all star gym coaching time, choreography etc. My kids are from the schools that have no budget for cheer and have no one or very few who have competed all star. They don't care about winning, but it is tough for those kids to take the floor and compete against a team with mostly level 4 and 5 athletes coached by a Worlds level coach. Solid healthy competition is great. Humiliation and having zero chance of placing isn't. However that doesn't mean this proposal, if true, is the right solution either.

"You are only responsible for being honest, not for someone else's reaction to your honesty."

I think skill-based divisions would be great. That way, like skills are against like skills. We currently have teams with full team standing tucks competing against teams with full team forward rolls. There simply is no comparison. Without upper-level skills, a team simply cannot max out the scoresheet. Redoing divisions based on skill has been talked about before at the MSSAA level. It usually doesn't go anywhere, either, with the argument being something like, well, every other sport competes based on school population, not skill level. My argument for that might be that in Pop Warner and AYF, cheer has changed with the times and cheer comps are now based on skill, not just age level so that competitions are a bit more fair. I think though, at this point, there is such a disparity between the top teams and the novice teams that it might need to be looked at. Curious as to how other states make their divisions.

 

[allstarmama]

This is where we may disagree. There is a complete disparity within divisions now which I think needs to change. Divisions should be Advanced, Intermediate and Beginner rather than based by population. That way the best can go against the best. It is humiliating for teams that have little skill and no professional choreography and can't even pay an athletic fee to go against teams who are coached by big name all star coaches and spent $1,000 or more per season on camps, all star gym coaching time, choreography etc. My kids are from the schools that have no budget for cheer and have no one or very few who have competed all star. They don't care about winning, but it is tough for those kids to take the floor and compete against a team with mostly level 4 and 5 athletes coached by a Worlds level coach. Solid healthy competition is great. Humiliation and having zero chance of placing isn't. However that doesn't mean this proposal, if true, is the right solution either.

"You are only responsible for being honest, not for someone else's reaction to your honesty."

I don't necessarily disagree there. But just because a team is coached by an all star coach doesn't mean the school has a huge budget for cheer. I know at CPs school we (parents) pay for our own camps,choreography and practice wear. We also have to fundraise for uniforms and any other "extras". We also pay a "user fee" that is $300.

 

[allstarmama]

I also find it curious this this is happening NOW. If you're going to implement a HUGE change like this it should happen in the off season before tryouts. I feel like someone on the board has an agenda and will benefit from the change and that's not right.
Eliminating the top 8 will not fix the disparity in skills. Isn't this why they created the Game Day Division? I smell sour grapes...just saying!

 

[twincheermom]

So I just went to look at the rules again. Here is how divisions are currently broken down:

16. Divisional Placement/Enrollment: Divisions will be re-aligned every two (2) years based on female enrollment. Beginning with the 2017-18 academic year, divisions will be re-aligned every four (4) years based on female enrollment. If schools combine for participation in cheerleading, the female enrollment of each school will be combined to determine the divisional placement. Divisional placement of teams in open invitationals and/or league competitions may be different from those defined in the MSSAA Divisional Chart. The MSSAA uses its division alignments to determine which teams advance to regional tournaments and the state championship.

The red part is a rule change made this year but will not start for a few more years.

I don't see anything about pulling the top 8 teams out and having everyone else compete for a state title. I really can't see how this would ever be accepted.