All-Star Sandbagging

[cheer25mom]

I think of sandbagging as having a team made up of a large proportion of athletes capable of competing at a higher level, not because you have to, but because you are trying to assure a win. A gym that fields a S2 that is made up largely of athletes competing on their S4 or S5 is sandbagging. A small gym that needs to use a few crossovers to have enough athletes to field a S2 isn't. For me, if more than half of your team competes a couple of levels higher, it's sandbagged.

 

[SL&AM]

"Stick around after Worlds, headed to the Summit! Turn that Level 5 into a 3, yeah we up and done it."

I can't imagine why anyone would leave between Worlds and Summit if they were doing both, may as well make it an extended vacation!

 

[Bellabooker]

I'm thinking more of when you have level 4/5 kids on level 1/2 teams at the same time during the season. So a level 5 kid competes on a level 2 and level 5 team.
I get that small gyms need crossovers. I have seen more this year comps splitting small/large gyms. And with the D2 summit, the split is even more.
So there is no reason a large gym should have to do this, just my opinion.

 

[CheerBank]

I can't imagine why anyone would leave between Worlds and Summit if they were doing both, may as well make it an extended vacation!

Sure, who needs school anyway.

 

[quitthedrama]

I think of sandbagging as having a team made up of a large proportion of athletes capable of competing at a higher level, not because you have to, but because you are trying to assure a win. A gym that fields a S2 that is made up largely of athletes competing on their S4 or S5 is sandbagging. A small gym that needs to use a few crossovers to have enough athletes to field a S2 isn't. For me, if more than half of your team competes a couple of levels higher, it's sandbagged.

They don't even have to be crossovers IMO. If your team is made up of athletes who have skills higher than the level they are competing at, that is sandbagging whether they are on a higher level team or not. If the same team could be competitive at a higher level, then they likely are sandbagging.
And agree with previous posters - this happens in other sports, not just cheer.

 

[SL&AM]

Sure, who needs school anyway.

Assuming the child doesn't miss any other day for any reason, it would be totally doable in our district. Not wise, but doable.

 

[Lisa Seye]

My CP is at a "big name" gym but it's a satellite location and we really are a small gym in number of athletes. We have four full year teams. One youth, one junior, two senior teams. Three of these teams are level two and one is senior 5. We also have three half year prep teams all level 1. In order to accommodate every athlete and their abilities, kids crossover between the two senior teams and the junior team. Yes my kid is on a junior 2 due to her age, and a senior 5 due to her abilities (not really elite level 5 yet tho :) ). The senior 5 team has 13 kids and the junior team has 15. If we didn't use crossovers there would be athletes without a team. We aren't using level 5 athletes to " ensure a win." We use them so the everyone has a team to fit in to. But keep in mind that if my CP senior team gets a bid to worlds, she then has to choose which team to go to Florida with as her junior team actually won their very first summit bid. So while they use crossovers in order to field a team for everyone, in the end one of the teams will suffer because you can't do world's 5 and summit level 2. Gyms that are small in size suffer because they can't field teams for every athlete with crossover rules and then they start to lose athletes to big gyms that have lots of athletes and won't have as much of a problem filling lost spots. Small gyms like ours don't have enough athletes with the level skills to field a level 4 or 3 based on abilities. Trying to please parents who want their kids on a world team so they pull crossovers from lower levels with a few level 5 skills. Then get slammed with new crossover rules to eliminate "sandbagging." In truly big gyms I can see why people get frustrated at sandbagging. In small gyms sometimes it's a necessity to keep the doors open. So it's a "darned if you do, darned if you don't" situation.

 

[Bellabooker]

My CP is at a "big name" gym but it's a satellite location and we really are a small gym in number of athletes. We have four full year teams. One youth, one junior, two senior teams. Three of these teams are level two and one is senior 5. We also have three half year prep teams all level 1. In order to accommodate every athlete and their abilities, kids crossover between the two senior teams and the junior team. Yes my kid is on a junior 2 due to her age, and a senior 5 due to her abilities (not really elite level 5 yet tho :) ). The senior 5 team has 13 kids and the junior team has 15. If we didn't use crossovers there would be athletes without a team. We aren't using level 5 athletes to " ensure a win." We use them so the everyone has a team to fit in to. But keep in mind that if my CP senior team gets a bid to worlds, she then has to choose which team to go to Florida with as her junior team actually won their very first summit bid. So while they use crossovers in order to field a team for everyone, in the end one of the teams will suffer because you can't do world's 5 and summit level 2. Gyms that are small in size suffer because they can't field teams for every athlete with crossover rules and then they start to lose athletes to big gyms that have lots of athletes and won't have as much of a problem filling lost spots. Small gyms like ours don't have enough athletes with the level skills to field a level 4 or 3 based on abilities. Trying to please parents who want their kids on a world team so they pull crossovers from lower levels with a few level 5 skills. Then get slammed with new crossover rules to eliminate "sandbagging." In truly big gyms I can see why people get frustrated at sandbagging. In small gyms sometimes it's a necessity to keep the doors open. So it's a "darned if you do, darned if you don't" situation.

I think that's one of the reasons they created the d2 summit, because small gyms can't survive without crossovers. But large gyms can, so that's why the regular summit has those rules

 

[Lisa Seye]

My CP is at a "big name" gym but it's a satellite location and we really are a small gym in number of athletes. We have four full year teams. One youth, one junior, two senior teams. Three of these teams are level two and one is senior 5. We also have three half year prep teams all level 1. In order to accommodate every athlete and their abilities, kids crossover between the two senior teams and the junior team. Yes my kid is on a junior 2 due to her age, and a senior 5 due to her abilities (not really elite level 5 yet tho :) ). The senior 5 team has 13 kids and the junior team has 15. If we didn't use crossovers there would be athletes without a team. We aren't using level 5 athletes to " ensure a win." We use them so the everyone has a team to fit in to. But keep in mind that if my CP senior team gets a bid to worlds, she then has to choose which team to go to Florida with as her junior team actually won their very first summit bid. So while they use crossovers in order to field a team for everyone, in the end one of the teams will suffer because you can't do world's 5 and summit level 2. Gyms that are small in size suffer because they can't field teams for every athlete with crossover rules and then they start to lose athletes to big gyms that have lots of athletes and won't have as much of a problem filling lost spots. Small gyms like ours don't have enough athletes with the level skills to field a level 4 or 3 based on abilities. Trying to please parents who want their kids on a world team so they pull crossovers from lower levels with a few level 5 skills. Then get slammed with new crossover rules to eliminate "sandbagging." In truly big gyms I can see why people get frustrated at sandbagging. In small gyms sometimes it's a necessity to keep the doors open. So it's a "darned if you do, darned if you don't" situation.

@caitlyn_the_camille this might clear up some confusion :)

 

[klynn64]

I don't think that's really what bothers people. In a small gym you might end up with a wide range of skills on a level 3 team. I know our Sr3 team has a couple girls that can do fulls, but also a few that can't do tucks. I don't consider that stacking, the majority of the athletes are level 3. The issue is more when all the atheletes could be level 4/5 and instead are competing level 3.

Or when a team competes throughout the season as a Level 4 but just prior to NCA they compete in a no name small competition as Level 2 so that they can compete at NCA as Level 2.

Or when a gym holds a special NCA tryout at their gym and builds a team of Level 2, 3, 4, and 5 athletes to compete only at NCA but as a Level 2 team.

 

[klynn64]

"Stick around after Worlds, headed to the Summit! Turn that Level 5 into a 3, yeah we up and done it."

A lot of teams did that but I don't think it can happen anymore. Worlds athletes can't perform at Summit except for on a Level 5 Restricted team. Even then they are limiting the number of Worlds athletes that can perform on a team.

 

[Bling it On]

A lot of teams did that but I don't think it can happen anymore. Worlds athletes can't perform at Summit except for on a Level 5 Restricted team. Even then they are limiting the number of Worlds athletes that can perform on a team.

Actually a Worlds athlete can cross to level 4 at Summit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[catlady]

My youngest cp is a good example for "stacked" teams. At tryouts next year she will have full skills for level 2 but, she doesn't have any level 3 skills. A level 2 team full of athletes like my youngest, would be "stacked" IMO but, not "sandbagged".

To me, "stacked" teams have athletes that are level appropriate, that have full team skills (possibly even a head grazing running tuck) but, aren't ready to move on to the next level safely. While sandbagging is putting a team together that should absolutely guarantee the win by putting athletes on it with full skills at higher levels.

 

[cheer25mom]

My youngest cp is a good example for "stacked" teams. At tryouts next year she will have full skills for level 2 but, she doesn't have any level 3 skills. A level 2 team full of athletes like my youngest, would be "stacked" IMO but, not "sandbagged".

To me, "stacked" teams have athletes that are level appropriate, that have full team skills (possibly even a head grazing running tuck) but, aren't ready to move on to the next level safely. While sandbagging is putting a team together that should absolutely guarantee the win by putting athletes on it with full skills at higher levels.

That's not stacking, that's level appropriate placement, and really what all gyms should be striving to do.

 

[caitlyn_the_camille]

@caitlyn_the_camille this might clear up some confusion :)

Thanks, that actually was helpful in understanding the situation. And the crossing down is prob not your decision, you're just doing what the coaches told you.
And understand, I'm not hating on you. You aren't breaking any rules, so you don't have to feel wrong or attacked or whatever.
But my attitude towards crossing over such higher level athletes to make a team, is that if there are 7-8 kids with true level skills, they can make a team. (I use this number bc stunt groups) Any less than that, and you can move them around to other teams. Any more than that, eh, they're only there to increase chances of winning.
If Lucky 7 can get a bid to worlds with 7 people, anyone can win a comp with that many.
And you may think I'm just a random saying this, but I have coached at a super small gym and I truly know the struggle.
We've put kids who barely had back handsprings on level 3, and bumped minis up to level 1, or even brought in people who could stunt but maybe not tumble, or vice versa, when we couldn't make teams. But we've never sandbagged/stacked. It was just an ethics thing for my owner. She wouldn't even put her own kid (on J3) on the level 1 team of 9 kids that she was age eligible for because she said she wanted her true level 1 team to win.
And win we did. No, it wasn't Summit or NCA, but our kids loved it and we made some of the best memories of our lives.
ETA I'd like to add, I know it's never that simple. I know some parents will be parents. And we did have parents leave for "better gyms" when their level 1 kid didn't make level 2, or when we came second to last at a comp bc they dropped one stunt (and numbers made it impossible to make that up). But you'd be surprised at how many parents stuck with us because their kids were happy. And I'm so grateful they did, because I've gotten to watch those kids grow up.