All-Star Small Gym/large Gym Question

[Rudags]

Can someone please PM me with an example of a large gym that claimed small gym status just because they only took a small number of kids to a comp? I've neer seen it actually happen.

Sharky - Ive seen numerous instances of this - Mainly at bigger competitions - I know my gym only takes a few teams to out of towns (normally 4s and 5s) and weve had to get the scheduyle changed to be in the "non small" division because that is where we were placed. Ill see if I can find any old results, I remember looking at some prior to making this post just to make sure that is how it worked.

 

[SharkDad]

That's my point, people might have thought your were cheating but didn't realize it was the event producer making a mistake. That's what we found out from the examples someone else gave me.

 

[hopskipandjump]

That's my point, people might have thought your were cheating but didn't realize it was the event producer making a mistake. That's what we found out from the examples someone else gave me.

So, then Mr. Shark Dad, that if I saw a mistake the event producer made on the status of my gym, I would not call attention to it? Sounds fishy....lol...

 

[SharkDad]

Like anyone else. . .please send me a specific example. PM me if you wish. Lets find out all the facts.

Was it the event producers policy? many have different rules.
Was it corrected after?
Was it fixed, but just didn't get updated on the web site?

I have so far only gotten a few examples and so far none of them have turned out to be anyone cheating. This leads me to believe people dont really have good ones outside of rumor or this really isn't that important to them, they just want to gripe. Personnaly I don't really think we should have a small gym category, because it allows for more ways to separate the divisions, reduce competition, and possibly let some large gyms slip through the cracks in an area that is not clearly defined by the USASF already.

 

[hopskipandjump]

Like anyone else. . .please send me a specific example. PM me if you wish. Lets find out all the facts.

Was it the event producers policy? many have different rules.
Was it corrected after?
Was it fixed, but just didn't get updated on the web site?

I have so far only gotten a few examples and so far none of them have turned out to be anyone cheating. This leads me to believe people dont really have good ones outside of rumor or this really isn't that important to them, they just want to gripe. Personnaly I don't really think we should have a small gym category, because it allows for more ways to separate the divisions, reduce competition, and possibly let some large gyms slip through the cracks in an area that is not clearly defined by the USASF already.

I don't want to PM you about this as I would surely be punished for it somehow and I want this post to be transparent as possible. You have gotten examples and you call it not cheating, yet, you know and I know if an event producer puts my or your teams/gym into the wrong division. If you don't correct it; it is cheating. If you say that you are taking 3 teams with you totaling 60 children, but you have 200 listed athletes at your one location gym, its cheating. I don't want to gripe. I want it fixed. I want the event producers to make me and everyone else list all of the athletes at my gym even if they do not attend, AND I would love it if you could verify that with USASF by registering everyone. That is it. That is all. If a representative from USASF would like me to supply names to them, I will. And then, there will be a lot of dancing going on from some organizations. I am not picking on anyone, but there ARE gyms who have used this small gym division to their advantage, whether they believed they were cheating or not. This is an easy fix. SO let's fix it.

 

[newcheerdad]

Might be a newbie POV, but I'm wondering why there's a need for a small/large gym distinction. I've seen plenty of large gyms whose teams are considerably worse than small gyms. I'm wondering if the real issue at hand isn't small/large gym, but a recognition that there's a wide enough talent disparity in the same level that the teams need to be segregated.

 

[SharkDad]

I can tell this means a lot to you. Reality is that gyms don't control event producers, even the USASF doesn't control event producers. If a mistake is made, you can bring it up. If they choose to fix it or not/or aren't organized enough to care then you can't do much about it.

I do know this rule has worked to the advantage of some large gyms. It has also worked to the advantage to smal gyms. I have not found any evidence of flat out cheating on behalf of a gym. But if you'd like to present any more formal information, I am on the USASF Parent Action Committee, so feel free to send me the specifics and I can get them to people who have the power to highlight--if not enforce this issue.

 

[CGAcheer]

With the required usasf membership of all athletes that starts next year it will be easy to count as long as we decide what a program is.

With that in place, will small gyms still have the choice to not compete as a small gym?

 

[Hungry]

Coming from a small gym, with probably less than 60 kids overall, it is a definite advantage for me to compete in the small gym category. We do not have full squads, we don't have the choice of multiple levels for the same age group. We put everyone on a team, and more often than not, it's by age, not skill.

I don't have the same amount of athletes to pull from to create my team as a large gym does. I don't have the same caliber athletes, with the same dedication, as big gyms do. I will never have full team tumbling. This puts me at a disadvantage at every competition.

As a coach, I do my best to improve each girls' skills and to create the best routine I can, given the ability level overall, and I'm seeing success this year. However, I do cringe occassionally when seeing certain gyms in my division knowing there isn't a chance for us... It's not about the winning vs losing, as much as it's competing against "like" teams. Teams that have the same challenges I have.

I've personally never seen a large gym abuse the small gym category. I know we've had to actually register for "small gym" when we signed up originally with certain producers because one time we forgot and were automatically added to the large gym category by default.

 

[newcheerdad]

Coming from a small gym, with probably less than 60 kids overall, it is a definite advantage for me to compete in the small gym category. We do not have full squads, we don't have the choice of multiple levels for the same age group. We put everyone on a team, and more often than not, it's by age, not skill.

I don't have the same amount of athletes to pull from to create my team as a large gym does. I don't have the same caliber athletes, with the same dedication, as big gyms do. I will never have full team tumbling. This puts me at a disadvantage at every competition.

As a coach, I do my best to improve each girls' skills and to create the best routine I can, given the ability level overall, and I'm seeing success this year. However, I do cringe occassionally when seeing certain gyms in my division knowing there isn't a chance for us... It's not about the winning vs losing, as much as it's competing against "like" teams. Teams that have the same challenges I have.

I've personally never seen a large gym abuse the small gym category. I know we've had to actually register for "small gym" when we signed up originally with certain producers because one time we forgot and were automatically added to the large gym category by default.

I think you've hit the nail on the head when you say you want to compete against "like" teams, where you're facing teams that are roughly the same ability level. Not all mini 1's or junior 2's are created equal.

From the threads I've read, it sounds like the way to create that competitive balance is a small gym/large gym distinction. If that works, then great, as long as an elite team from a small gym has the chance to compete against the "big girls" if they desire.

 

[Hungry]

If that works, then great, as long as an elite team from a small gym has the chance to compete against the "big girls" if they desire.

Agreed! I think it should be a requirement upon original registration to request to be entered into "small gym". If you don't request it, you just compete in the regular division or "large gym", so that you can compete against the larger gyms.

If you request it, then the event producers would have time to confirm the gym is in fact a registered small gym and not a large gym bringing less athletes.

 

[hopskipandjump]

Coming from a small gym, with probably less than 60 kids overall, it is a definite advantage for me to compete in the small gym category. We do not have full squads, we don't have the choice of multiple levels for the same age group. We put everyone on a team, and more often than not, it's by age, not skill.

I don't have the same amount of athletes to pull from to create my team as a large gym does. I don't have the same caliber athletes, with the same dedication, as big gyms do. I will never have full team tumbling. This puts me at a disadvantage at every competition.

As a coach, I do my best to improve each girls' skills and to create the best routine I can, given the ability level overall, and I'm seeing success this year. However, I do cringe occassionally when seeing certain gyms in my division knowing there isn't a chance for us... It's not about the winning vs losing, as much as it's competing against "like" teams. Teams that have the same challenges I have.

I've personally never seen a large gym abuse the small gym category. I know we've had to actually register for "small gym" when we signed up originally with certain producers because one time we forgot and were automatically added to the large gym category by default.

Hungry, I feel the same way. Unless you come from a small gym, it is hard to understand the realities of it. If you go against a large gym, like you stated, then you are generally facing teams that can actually pick and choose teams that really fit the level and age of the cheerleaders involved. I will use our Junior team as an example. 24 girls. 4 are 12., 14 are 9 and under, 6 are 1o/11. I have no senior team so I can't put the 12 year olds on a senior team and they have been with me forever. They really have not much of a chance against teams that have teams with players maxing out their age groups. Our 8, 9 and 10 year olds truly do not match up experience-wise with a 13/14 year old. We even look small compared to other teams with the same numbers on them. Having said that, they do pretty good score wise in comparison to the large gyms. They are right in the mix by usually 3-5 points, but the truth is they are usually near the bottom in rankings. I am so proud of them but is hard to keep kids coming back to the gym (and their parents) if they lose all the time.

And lastly, I have never signed my team up for small gym division although we are.

 

[Katybugmom]

Might be a newbie POV, but I'm wondering why there's a need for a small/large gym distinction. I've seen plenty of large gyms whose teams are considerably worse than small gyms. I'm wondering if the real issue at hand isn't small/large gym, but a recognition that there's a wide enough talent disparity in the same level that Tteams need to be segregated.

 

[Katybugmom]

We are a true small gym in my opinion. We have 19 members- that's it. Ages 8-16 so we have to compete as a Sr team. Even though we only have one sr on the team- majority is 9-12. Our skills also range from roundoffs to standing tucks but the average is a level 2. We are very competitive but I wished we could compete against other gyms that only have one team because you do have a more varied group.

 

[CGAcheer]

We are a true small gym in my opinion. We have 19 members- that's it. Ages 8-16 so we have to compete as a Sr team. Even though we only have one sr on the team- majority is 9-12. Our skills also range from roundoffs to standing tucks but the average is a level 2. We are very competitive but I wished we could compete against other gyms that only have one team because you do have a more varied group.

This is what "small gym division" should be about- Gyms with 3 or less teams and less than 40 kids