All-Star Suggestions For Improving Scoring

[Deleted member 15]

Judges also need to be held accountable immediatly for their scores. They also need to be seperated so that their judgements are their own and are not influenced by the other judges on the panel.

I disagree with the bolded part. It the job of the judging panel to get it right, not just an individual. I'd rather see the judges work together, discuss, whatever to ensure the result is correct.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I have no clue if some EP's do this but is video replay something that would help? I think it would be hard to see everything in 2:30 min. I know some EP's have 2 panel of judges sitting next to each other and they rotate between a jr then sr team so the judges have 2:30 minutes to finalize scores before they have to judge the next team. What do yall think about video replay?

You either need a 3 panel rotation or need to spread out the teams performing more.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Hire local as much as possible, but especially for L1-3 (maybe only hire local judges at that level), spend the travel/hotel fees on the L4-6 judges-as that is where your world's bid money is going-you want the most experience you can get there.

Do you have any conflict of interest concerns with local judges judging local teams?

 

[Deleted member 15]

Teams get bids from different events according to what those events value the most in a routines, like Jamfest and their double difficulty for pyramids and stunts. Not every gym is going to be good at everything consistently, and I kinda like that the different styles come together at Worlds to battle it out (not that I'm saying Worlds scoresheets are the right universal model). @BlueCat mentioned on another thread about matrix scoring, having judges score each section out of a standard 10 and EPs can then multiply them to reflect their bias - stunting, tumbling, jumps, dance etc. I think that a universal standard 10 for decreases the likelihood of judge error and confusion over multiple scoresheets, but still gives EPs the leeway to present and run their competitions according to their preferences. Is this too naïve a proposal?

Companies using the Varsity system last season had this option. UCA and NCA had different weights, UCA being a little more building heavy.

 

[King]

Companies using the Varsity system last season had this option. UCA and NCA had different weights, UCA being a little more building heavy.

I will say even with different weights on different things in general the top spots dont change. Maybe team 1 or 2 flip flop, but who make sup team 1 or 2 stays the same. I believe once we have a universal scoresheet the percentage scores will eventually fade away because people will realize they dont really change things.

 

[MissBee]

Do you have any conflict of interest concerns with local judges judging local teams?

Good point. I forgot that everyone isn't as honest as I am. I step down from judging a comp if a team I've worked with is in the comp (even though I would be much much harder on them, because I have a high expectation for them).

 

[Deleted member 15]

Good point. I forgot that everyone isn't as honest as I am. I step down from judging a comp if a team I've worked with is in the comp (even though I would be much much harder on them, because I have a high expectation for them).

If every judge stepped down would there be enough left?

 

[newcheerdad]

How about the certification/re-certification alone. Is it done locally after work or on a weekend or are there additional expenses related to it such as travel and time off work?

I'm trying to compare it to rules judge training, which was done in about 8 cites last year. It required a 6 hour drive and an overnight stay in addition to the cost of the course and test.

Most often they're local. The state referee's association sponsored the one that I attended, and they do a few around the state each year.

I understand there are far more soccer referees than cheer judges, so the critical mass necessary to have a certification class in every state might not exist.

 

[NJ Coach]

I don't think coaches don't want you to see their scoresheets not b/c of something shady but maybe because they don't want YOU to know what areas they are lacking in and areas you could improve to come back and beat them.

I think I am ok with it but that's b/c I'm a competitor and I stand behind what we put on the mat.

I agree with your reasoning on why coaches might not want others to know where they are lacking. However, if you are any kind of coach, you should be able to build a balanced routine without any areas lacking.

You want to see my scores...that's fine by me. You want to know where you need to improve to beat me...that ok too. Good luck with that :D

 

[MissBee]

If every judge stepped down would there be enough left?

Right. And let's be honest, the cheer world is very small...every comp you work you know someone or have a connection somehow. I turn down the most obvious: family member on a team or a team I do choreo for.

 

[MissBee]

I agree with your reasoning on why coaches might not want others to know where they are lacking. However, if you are any kind of coach, you should be able to build a balanced routine without any areas lacking.

You want to see my scores...that's fine by me. You want to know where you need to improve to beat me...that ok too. Good luck with that :D

Coaches should be able to watch a routine, any routine, and know where that routine is lacking. Cheerleadin is not a sport where you can know a competitors weakness and use it to your advantage (like forcing to the weak side). Each team needs a routine that showcases thru strengths and gets them the max points possible in their weak areas. Knowing that I didn't score well in tumbling and my competition did shouldn't be news to me.

 

[Num1Stunta]

Judges training is the most common response to this question. Is anyone willing to tell us what they would like to see on the Judges Training 101 course outline?

It seems like it's way too easy to get into judging. I know of some people who judge for various companies who I personally wouldn't trust to coach a level 2 team, let alone be judging level 4 and 5 skills. Also, there should be a rule that, in order to judge a big national like Cheersport, NCA, Jamfest Indy, UCA, that you should have at least 5 years of judging with that particular company's scoresheet.

Oversight would be great too. If someone like yourself were able to review videos and compare them to the judges' scoresheets, you could have an idea of who is cutting it and who isn't.

And. please, let us see composites:)For example:

Team A- Stunts 7, Jumps 8, RT 8.5, ST 8.5, Tosses 9, Pyramids 7
Team B- Stunts 7, Jumps 8, RT 7, ST 7, Tosses 7, Pyramids 8

If I'm Team B, then I know I have to work on Tumbling and Tosses for Day 2 because that's where I'm getting beat.

 

[WyldWon]

Being in the northeast we seem to go up against the same teams over and over....it is amazing how some judges seem to see things from comp to comp...one team in paricular we outskill on every area of the scoresheet but at 2 of the comps we ran neck and neck ,with us winning by a small margin....and at other comps we totally blew them away (I'm comparing similarly executed routines)...so how does a team with say half the standing tumbling almost tie you in that part of the score sheet????? Confusing.

 

[socratesofcheer]

three pointers are worth more because they are more difficult. Running in after a touchdown is worth more than a field goal. So they do differentiate scores.

Actually there are no three point touchdowns in football. Each TD is worth 6. @kingston is saying no matter if it is on special teams, offense, or defense a TD is worth 6 points.

 

[BlueCat]

That is fine, but what is the most difficult thing in cheerleading? I would argue proper jumping because only 3 gyms do it that well. I know a lot of gyms who basket and stunt well. There are plenty of amazing tumbling gyms. Does that mean because so few do it well it is the hardest?

I think the fact that so few gym spend a significant chunk of time is more a reflection of the athletes' complete lack of interest in jumping than how "difficult" it is physically. Generally, it is viewed (at least in our part of the world) as a technical part of cheer that few of the kids enjoy doing. In general, they look forward to stunts, tumbling, and dance because they think it is fun, while they dread working on jumps. We work on them anyway because they are still part of the scoring. I get that they are a traditional part of cheer, but so were pom pons, saddle oxfords, and megaphones and those things have thankfully been phased out of all star.

I would agree that it is by far the hardest to get the athletes excited to work on.