All-Star The Key Ingredient.

[King]

I agree with you also. My response to WCMAN applies to this post as well. I support everything you just typed about increasing skill for each comp as you can and stabilizing it pre-comp.

If you are saying that mental is AS important as physical, then I will agree with you. My point though is that when your athletes are stronger than the routine they are throwing, they can focus on everything else because they are not gasping for air and their arms are not giving out by the time pyramid rolls around.

Physical strength is one aspect of cheer that athletes have complete control over. It is a no-brainer. A team should never ever lose because they weren't conditioned enough to handle their own routine. The body reponds to the training you put it through by making itself stronger. You can give a team the hardest routine ever and as long as you train them appropriately for it, they will be able to physically handle it without exhaustion. This is why athletes can run marathons...they train for it. Training a cheer team appropriately....well that is another issue haha.

Training for cheer is a bit more difficult because skills tend to be an all or none situation. There really isn't a middle ground as to if a skill hit.

As well the logistics of cheer do provide plenty of challenges. On an unlimited timeline with unlimited practices without the crunch of making adjustments then you can focus solely on the physical and mental.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

I disagree somewhat. If you walk off the mat not tired, why didn't you do more on the mat?

Because you were in such good shape you did everything you could and were not worn out.

 

[King]

Because you were in such good shape you did everything you could and were not worn out.

Is it not possible they could have done more if they are in such good shape?

 

[StarshipTrooper]

There is a razors edge for all the top teams in their division. If you hit the heck out of your routine and are athletic and do not have an issue hitting repeatedly, but you get 3rd or 2nd repeatedly should your routine be harder?

Cheer is a weird sport. It does NOT reward consistency. It rewards performing a routine once, one time, perfectly. So if you have one hit in you a year for the hardest routine in your division you win worlds, even if you didn't hit all year long.

All things being equal, say a squad with the exact same skill set, the athletic one wins as I said. I think athletic equates with clean AND consistency.

 

[Level5Mom]

Training for cheer is a bit more difficult because skills tend to be an all or none situation. There really isn't a middle ground as to if a skill hit.

As well the logistics of cheer do provide plenty of challenges. On an unlimited timeline with unlimited practices without the crunch of making adjustments then you can focus solely on the physical and mental.

Agreed. It is a problem. Many gymnasts come to cheer because it requires so much less time commitment. Much of a gymnasts time is spent conditioning. In cheer, athletes tend to condition hard in the summer, and then once choreography is set, the only conditioning they may receive is going full out. That is unfortunate because that means an athlete is only as strong as the routine they are given. I feel they need to be stronger than that to prevent injuries.

I wish we could implememt some sort of conditioning at each practice beyond going full out. At the very least I would like to see the PEP program implemented for teams. http://smsmf.org/files/PEP_Program_04122011.pdf after practice or on off days. I understand that asking more of athletes will get resistance, as will extra staffing, mat space, etc. But keep in mind that we are asking our kids to do skills that level 10 gymnasts do, but we are not conditioning them as such. It is a shame.

 

[King]

All things being equal, say a squad with the exact same skill set, the athletic one wins as I said. I think athletic equates with clean AND consistency.

All things being equal, yes, I agree.

What if the less athletic team spends some more time on a harder skill though than being athletic?

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Is it not possible they could have done more if they are in such good shape?

An athletic level one team will beat a non athletic one if both hit.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

All things being equal, yes, I agree.

What if the less athletic team spends some more time on a harder skill though than being athletic?

They have a chance, but the athletic team wins the vast majority of the time. Of course, to be the hardest and most athletic is virtually unbeatable.

 

[King]

Agreed. It is a problem. Many gymnasts come to cheer because it requires so much less time commitment. Much of a gymnasts time is spent conditioning. In cheer, athletes tend to condition hard in the summer, and then once choreography is set, the only conditioning they may receive is going full out. That is unfortunate because that means an athlete is only as strong as the routine they are given. I feel they need to be stronger than that to prevent injuries.

I wish we could implememt some sort of conditioning at each practice beyond going full out. At the very least I would like to see the PEP program implemented for teams. http://smsmf.org/files/PEP_Program_04122011.pdf after practice or on off days. I understand that asking more of athletes will get resistance, as will extra staffing, mat space, etc. But keep in mind that we are asking our kids to do skills that level 10 gymnasts do, but we are not conditioning them as such. It is a shame.

It is a shame and is one of the intricacies of cheer. I have spent a good deal of time working with my trainer on a couple of ideas to push harder within the frame work of a practice. And.. I think that is the key. I don't think you can drastically alter practices or how they work. But possibly minor changes and adjustments to try things in a more correct way will produce better athletic results.

 

[King]

They have a chance, but the athletic team wins the vast majority of the time. Of course, to be the hardest and most athletic is virtually unbeatable.

I believe the two have correlation, but not causation. I don't equate a flyer who is 85 pounds as more athletic than a flyer who is 115 pounds (but same body fat percentage and both are correct height for their weight) but the 85 pound flyer makes a routine significantly easier. Using 12 year olds as flyers does make things just easier and the routine easier.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

I believe the two have correlation, but not causation. I don't equate a flyer who is 85 pounds as more athletic than a flyer who is 115 pounds (but same body fat percentage and both are correct height for their weight) but the 85 pound flyer makes a routine significantly easier. Using 12 year olds as flyers does make things just easier and the routine easier.

But comparing apples to apples instead of oranges, the very same team with the very same skills that commits to intense training to develop athleticism will improve dramatically due to execution and consistency from stamina. In my opinion, again, the key ingredient at any level is first and foremost, commitment to athleticism.

 

[Level5Mom]

It is a shame and is one of the intricacies of cheer. I have spent a good deal of time working with my trainer on a couple of ideas to push harder within the frame work of a practice. And.. I think that is the key. I don't think you can drastically alter practices or how they work. But possibly minor changes and adjustments to try things in a more correct way will produce better athletic results.

Maybe, but I still think a team who conditions together all season (not just summer) tilts the odds in their favor.

I wonder if any teams do this now, and we just don't know about it. Cheetahs and Panthers seem to be in amazing physical shape, I wonder if BlueCat would be willing to share how they condition? Maybe they don't do anything beyond multiple full outs, idk. It would be interesting to study.

I am glad to hear you are discussing it with your trainer :). As a trainer myself (non-working), that makes me very happy.

 

[Level5Mom]

I believe the two have correlation, but not causation. I don't equate a flyer who is 85 pounds as more athletic than a flyer who is 115 pounds (but same body fat percentage and both are correct height for their weight) but the 85 pound flyer makes a routine significantly easier. Using 12 year olds as flyers does make things just easier and the routine easier.

I don't equate body fat % and weight heavily to athleticism in this instance. I equate athleticism to cardiovascular and anaerobic endurance, as well as strength, power, and agility levels.

 

[King]

I don't equate body fat % and weight heavily to athleticism in this instance. I equate athleticism to cardiovascular and anaerobic endurance, as well as strength, power, and agility levels.

I agree, but athleticism has to be careful that you don't overly focus on it. If you had flyers that were all 115 do you think you would see a dramatic increase in hitting full out if you got all new flyers (with equal skill level) who were 85 or if you overly practiced and trained?

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Disagree... Athletes always have an advantage but they need the head to go with it. The mental portion is just as important. An athlete can physically push their way to excellence but a weak mind can push itself to error.

I would suggest the very athlete that commits to being more athletic than any other is usually the mentally toughest also. Take jumps. I think they are the obvious skill that reveals and expresses athleticism and commitment. There are great jumpers born no doubt, the vast majority have to work hard to get there. A team that does not jump well is not committed to the rigors of athletic training in my opinion. Same with form in stunting and tumbling. Flexibility is an expression of athleticism and commitment to stretching, especially in the post pubertal female. The best flyers with the best technique are flexible. Athleticism.